The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

a place to discuss anything of interest to owners of M151 jeeps

Moderators: rickf, raymond, Mr. Recovery

WC Matt
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 1648
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 11:59 am

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by WC Matt » January 7th, 2011, 1:47 pm

Bill, Idaho wrote:Ok, so if one was to completely remove any and all political overtones, which movie would be technically the most correct as far as equipment? My problem is whenever I go to a movie (which is hardly ever anymore), I become too involved in how accurate the thing is in regards to gear and vehicles, rather than going with the plot and simply enjoying it as a couple of hours of entertainment.
Bill
I would think it would be John Wayne's "The Green Berets" if only because all of the stuff in the movie was current issue at the time and (I think) they also had the help of the US Army when filming it.

Crusader_22 wrote:



"Casualties of War" was also technically proficient, but over the top in the anti-Vietnam sense, maybe the worst offender. Just no objectiveness at all. (But I give it a little star for being the only VN film I have seen that actually bothers to use a real XM177E2 instead of CAR-15s or other wrong carbines! After all, I am a weapon guy.)




I'll think of more later. Anyone else?

Jeff


Jeff
How about "The Boys in Company C"? Only good thing about it was a fresh out of the 'Corps R.Lee as a USMC D.I. (must have been one of his first rolls).


The XM177E2 might have been one of those full size 7mm? cap guns made in Japan. They fired a paper cap that was inserted into a brass "shell". When the weapon was fired, it would eject the "spent" shell like a live firearm. Don't know if they make them anymore but that was pre air soft. If you want to see them (the cap guns) in action, just watch old episodes of "Tour of Duty" as that's what all the M16A1s were in that series.
DEAN wrote:Try 'The Odd Angry Shot' - its a film about the Australian SAS in Vietnam and gives a different perspective from the usual US involvement. Haven't seen it for a long time, but do seem to remember that its anti-war.

There was also an Australian mini-series on Vietnam, called (imaginatively) 'Vietnam'. Can't remember if its any good or not.

There was an American TV series called "Tour of duty" that was on during the 1980s. It centered around an Infantry platoon in country and then there was another series (on around the same time) called "China Beach." It centered around a field hospital.

Of the popular Vietnam films:

You may be interested to know that Full Metal Jacket was entirely filmed in London.....there are odd bits that give it away like road markings etc, but still a good film. Yes all of the WWII soft skins kind of give that away and when Matthew Modine is talking with "Tex" right after he is shot you can see the actor's breath (it was filmed in the winter time over there)
I don't think Platoon has aged well and seems very contrived now. Apocolypse Now is very moody and atmospheric and as a consequence seems deeper than it really is (filmed in the Philipines with the local military). I think Good Morning Vietnam is actually one of the better era films.

Regardless of its technical aspects, The Green Berets is a terrible film on many levels, but does stand-out for being pro-Vietnam war. The only other one I can think of is We Were Soldiers, which is also not a good film, but pretends to be purely because it is graphic.

Dean
I have to agree with your comments. Think you hit the nail right on the head.


quote]

Matt
Last edited by WC Matt on January 7th, 2011, 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
muttguru
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 1992
Joined: November 26th, 2007, 12:18 pm
Location: Li'l ol' England.....

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by muttguru » January 7th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Crusader_22 wrote: .......I'll think of more later. Anyone else? Jeff
Last year I saw a film on TV named "A Bright Shining Lie". Made in 1998 and starring one of my favourite actors Bill Paxton, I thought this was one of the best but most underrated films on Nam that I'd ever seen. Well worth seeking out if you haven't seen it before.

However, I can't deny the influence that The Green Berets had on me in my MB/GPW youth. This film was directly responsible for me being here, on this board, discussing mutts.
I still look at my A2 and say to myself..."You're What This Is All About" :D
Kind regards....
Ken

Always wanted - Details and pictures of M416 Trailer data plates & M151 data plates & body-tags for my research. Thanks!

Contact address - - muttguru@aol.com

Note for 2023..... Ken..."Less Stress - More Exercise!"

ohiomgman
1st Sergeant
1st Sergeant
Posts: 474
Joined: September 4th, 2009, 4:06 pm
Location: The Great White North of N.E. Ohio

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by ohiomgman » January 7th, 2011, 4:19 pm

When folks who have never served, ask me what basic training for the US Army was like where and when I was in... I just tell them to watch the first half of FMJ. That it will give you a "leg up," on what an un PC, US military was like during wartime.

All of the "Vietnam War" films have had...'elements'..here and there that seemed familiar...at least to me.

Seems odd...all of the equipment that we were accustomed to using as soldiers back then, the vehicles, tanks, rifles, field equipment, uniforms...everything...are all now collectors items. Makes me feel old. Now..looking at my 1950, M38 Willys Jeep and looking at the equipment in pictures from my military era...it seems strange that everything had those BIG white stars everywhere. Aiming points for the enemy? I did not 'dress' my M151A1 to look like it would have back then.. But, my early M series and WWII stuff is painted period correct. I consider My M151 a useful piece of ordnance and a weapons platform...ergo... Forrest green and flat black or subdued stars and numbers. !968 seems like a very long time ago.

What about "Firebase Gloria?" Anybody have any comments about that one?
NRA Life Member. Class 7 FFL/ SOT
1964, M151-A1
1950, US M-38 Jeep. Serial # 36.
1952,US M-38 Jeep
1965, Willys M-274 Mule
1945, CCKW, closed cab, 353
416 Trailer
M100 Trailer
US Army 5 year RA. RSVN 1968-1970

WC Matt
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 1648
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 11:59 am

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by WC Matt » January 7th, 2011, 4:36 pm

ohiomgman wrote:


What about "Firebase Gloria?" Anybody have any comments about that one?
It has R.Lee Ermy in it.......
Matt

DEAN
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 14
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 9:44 am

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by DEAN » January 7th, 2011, 6:36 pm

For anyone with a poor memory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Vietnam_War_films

Its going to be interesting to see what film makers do with Afghanistan (and Iraq for that matter), particularly with the paralells being drawn between Vietnam and Afghanistan. For instance: The Hurt Locker is a terrible film, just total, cliched, inaccurate tosh. The Green Zone is for 10 year olds.....

Crusader_22
1st Sergeant
1st Sergeant
Posts: 446
Joined: February 7th, 2010, 3:59 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by Crusader_22 » January 7th, 2011, 7:55 pm

I haven't even bothered watching "The Green Zone", nor will I, in all likelyhood.

Like I said in my earlier post, I think "Hurt Locker" got some things right, like how the locals were in our presence, that "feel", for lack of a better description. The plot was silly, but watching it felt like being there, to a degree.

Watch "Restrepo". Very good - but of course, it is a documentary, all actual footage. But that is the best kind.

For Vietnam, "The Anderson Platoon", another documentary with very little dialogue at all - like I mentioned earlier, is great.

Jeff
Image
11 yrs Army NG, currently full time AH-64D Apache Longbow crewchief
Former 11B, 32 IN BDE, WIARNG "RED ARROW!" OIF 3 2005-2006
General know it all jerk 42 years and running.

SOLD 1971 AM General M151A2
SOLD 1966 USMC M416

Crusader_22
1st Sergeant
1st Sergeant
Posts: 446
Joined: February 7th, 2010, 3:59 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by Crusader_22 » January 8th, 2011, 4:53 am

XM177E2 might have been one of those full size 7mm? cap guns made in Japan. They fired a paper cap that was inserted into a brass "shell". When the weapon was fired, it would eject the "spent" shell like a live firearm. Don't know if they make them anymore but that was pre air soft. If you want to see them (the cap guns) in action, just watch old episodes of "Tour of Duty" as that's what all the M16A1s were in that series.
More likely is the production company hired a weapons production firm that "got it right". Hollywood hires small businesses that handle small production details like this - especially firearms specialists - which handle all the intricasies of that segment of production. Then the actual film production company does not have to maintain stocks of class 3 weapons, blanks, legal records, and so on. Same with uniforms and equipment, in some cases.

They hire these guys, and ultimately the producer and director make the call on who gets the job, based on cost, and who can give the level of accuracy the production demands.

If the director and producer are OK with what the studio has lying around, then that is what is in the film. If they need or want a higher level of accuracy, well then, they hire someone who will provide it.

Money = level of detail ...if it ends up that way. Bottom line is, if the diresctor and producer want it to be right, they hire the right guys. I am guessing cap guns are less favored for multiple takes when a fully stocked weapons production company with class 3 assets are available. Hollywood blank adapters and full auto real guns make much more financial sense.

Jeff
Image
11 yrs Army NG, currently full time AH-64D Apache Longbow crewchief
Former 11B, 32 IN BDE, WIARNG "RED ARROW!" OIF 3 2005-2006
General know it all jerk 42 years and running.

SOLD 1971 AM General M151A2
SOLD 1966 USMC M416

WC Matt
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 1648
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 11:59 am

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by WC Matt » January 8th, 2011, 10:35 am

Crusader_22 wrote:






Money = level of detail ...if it ends up that way. Bottom line is, if the diresctor and producer want it to be right, they hire the right guys. I am guessing cap guns are less favored for multiple takes when a fully stocked weapons production company with class 3 assets are available. Hollywood blank adapters and full auto real guns make much more financial sense.

Jeff
I've never seen a movie yet that didn't have some mistakes. as for "cap guns" vs "the real thing," have a closer look at the movies you're watching as they use a lot more rubber ducks, "cap guns" & propane guns then you'd think. For example in Saving Private Ryan as well as Band of Brothers the only time the actors had working weapons was when they actually had to shoot in a scene. Otherwise it was a rubber duck. I think the "cap guns" may have fallen by the way side as I haven't seen any advertising for them in a long time but then again, "Calsulties of war" was made almost 25 years ago.

Remember not all movies are made inside the USA and laws pertaining to civilian possesion of firearms reguardless of action type are different (in most places it is forbidden for civies to possess guns) and they make no exception for production companies.

Has anyone seen "84 Charlie MoPic"?
Matt

Crusader_22
1st Sergeant
1st Sergeant
Posts: 446
Joined: February 7th, 2010, 3:59 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by Crusader_22 » January 8th, 2011, 2:11 pm

Matt, you are right...in fact, the rubber ducks from Saving Private Ryan were for sale for a while.

I guess cap gun or otherwise, I was just happy to see that they bothered to at least make it look right!
Image
11 yrs Army NG, currently full time AH-64D Apache Longbow crewchief
Former 11B, 32 IN BDE, WIARNG "RED ARROW!" OIF 3 2005-2006
General know it all jerk 42 years and running.

SOLD 1971 AM General M151A2
SOLD 1966 USMC M416

WC Matt
Colonel
Colonel
Posts: 1648
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 11:59 am

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by WC Matt » January 8th, 2011, 4:33 pm

Crusader_22 wrote:Matt, you are right...in fact, the rubber ducks from Saving Private Ryan were for sale for a while.

I guess cap gun or otherwise, I was just happy to see that they bothered to at least make it look right!

Jeff
Thanks, but let me back track a little bit here. It's been twenty-couple years since I watched Calsulties of war and they could very well have had a real XM in it. I was making a statement that sometimes what we see on the screen may not be what it actually is.

Matt

Speaking of MX177s After the war,Colt produced a copy of that rifle for the civilian market (model 649?). The flash hider was a little longer then the original and it was permently attached to the barrel.

User avatar
rickf
General
General
Posts: 19741
Joined: November 26th, 2007, 1:28 pm
Location: Pemberton, NJ.

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by rickf » January 8th, 2011, 6:32 pm

I have been following this thread since the beginning and I have to agree with OMG man, small facets here and there but you will never know what it was like unless you were there. Days of boredom separated by minutes (or hours) of sheer terror. I have very little memory of what went on while I was there due to a head injury but I think I can probably speak for others when I say that the memories I have are more than enough. I do not need to be reminded by a movie. I have seen many references to Apocalypse Now, The night time bridge scene, the guy asking who was in charge, The GI's mobbing the stage and getting smoked. Come on guys. What was the one with Willem Dafoe? That one would have you believe that every enlisted man was stoned the whole time they were there. Not to mention some other goofy stuff. One man down a tunnel by himself? I don't think so. At 6'3" I was out for tunnel rat but I know a rat very well and he has told me you did not go in a tunnel alone. He still has nightmares from the tunnels!

Rick
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

ohiomgman
1st Sergeant
1st Sergeant
Posts: 474
Joined: September 4th, 2009, 4:06 pm
Location: The Great White North of N.E. Ohio

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by ohiomgman » January 8th, 2011, 9:11 pm

Every person who spent time In-Country during the Vietnam war can tell a different story than someone who was 100 miles away, or who had a different MOS or who served in, or during, a different time period.Thus, when we watch JW & the GB's or "Platoon"...etc., we may or may not "identify well." I cannot recall there being a 'Vietnam War movie' that pre-dates JW & the GB's. So it was a groundbreaker...No? I stopped the DVD many times recently and zoomed in on parts of the vehicles and helicopters. Next time I watch it I will preserve images of THAT.

I expect the same will be true of other 'conflicts' and other 'vets' of those conflicts...and of the movies which will be sure to arise about those vets and those conflicts.

"Memphis Belle" seemed well done to me.

SPR and BOB ..I thought were both excellent.
NRA Life Member. Class 7 FFL/ SOT
1964, M151-A1
1950, US M-38 Jeep. Serial # 36.
1952,US M-38 Jeep
1965, Willys M-274 Mule
1945, CCKW, closed cab, 353
416 Trailer
M100 Trailer
US Army 5 year RA. RSVN 1968-1970

DEAN
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 14
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 9:44 am

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by DEAN » January 10th, 2011, 7:35 am

Not to turn this thread into a film class, but one obvious balance for any war film is between authenticity and drama / story (or message). For some reason, producers, directors and writers cannot find enough drama in real events not to create thier own storys therein (I.e. Saving Private Ryan) and unfortunately Hollywood is not known for balance or authenticity (i.e U-571)

Obviously different people want different things from films - escapism, realism (technical or historical), thought-provoking etc. The general trend does seem to be moving toward more realism (or the impression of realism), but not entirely so (i.e. Green Zone...). I suspect most people on this forum lean more towards 'realism' than drama.

Films like Kellys Heroes and Three Kings are obviously story led and not at all authentic (but great fun regardless).

The Green Berets is obviously a propoganda message, with poor acting and story (I can't comment on how technically accurate though), thus not a good film.

Saving private Ryan is clearly two main storys rolled into one - the historicial context (the long D-Day scene doesn't actually contribute to the plot) and the Ryan story line. The historical elements appear to be quite realistic. Flags of our Fathers / Letters from Iwo Jima are in a similar vein (but don't work as well).

The Thin Red Line, despite being a hard watch, also appears to be an attempt at realism - huge, protracted boring waits, with terrifying and bloody action in between. The story is quite thin.

Full Metal Jacket seems to get good reviews from all, veterans included. Good basic story and seemingly authentic (although the first half would be nothing without R.Lee Emery), but I suspect technically inaccurate? There are some very good scenes that get the message across very well, befitting the era.

Platoon, despite being written and directed by a veteran seems very contrived - the two sargents seem almost like cartoon characters (the hard, drinking, moral-less, killer and the easy, pot-smoking, thinking soldier) and the plot story is poor. Did characters and events like that really occur?

Apocolypes Now - Funny how may people say this is thier favorite war film, despite being technically and historically inaccurate, as well as having a pretty thin plot (two hours to get to 'war is complex'?). It is very moodily filmed though, sountrack etc. Essentially character driven.

The Hurst Locker - poor plot, cliche riddled, technically inaccurate....how this won an Oscar is beyond me (essentially Lethal Weapon in the desert).

Band of Brothers - probably the best attempt yet. Read the book.

Some people obviously struggle to get past technical or historical inaccuracies and the more you know, the less you can let slip or ignore. If one can suspend-thier-disbelief, the films may be more entertaining.

Personal favorite - Full Metal Jacket (anyone whos been through basic training will know why), but only just over Kelly's Heroes for fun!

Sorry - got carried away......

PS - the previous poster is correct. Hardware is generally supplied by the armourer's, who are sub-contracted. Whilst you get what you pay for, the accuracy is still based on thier knowledge and availability of kit (the Band of Borthers armourer for instance spoke to the the real soldiers portrayed and asked them what kit they had). The same applies to military advice (Dale Dye has advised / acted in films from WW2 to the Gulf, but served in Vietnam). To be honest, if someone can't get past seeing the wrong muzzle, vehicle badge or whatever, then they should probably be watching documentaries or the news....:D

User avatar
rickf
General
General
Posts: 19741
Joined: November 26th, 2007, 1:28 pm
Location: Pemberton, NJ.

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by rickf » January 10th, 2011, 9:10 am

Dean, Very well said. To answer your question about the sergeant.... Yes there were characters just like both of them. Events, well, some of them but definitely not others. As you said, you need some sensationalism to get people to watch.


Rick
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

myitinaw
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 12
Joined: November 29th, 2010, 12:45 am

Re: The Green Berets: John Wayne (The film)

Unread post by myitinaw » January 15th, 2011, 3:07 am

Dale Dye was the technical advisor for "Casualties of War",
and Tony Meserve [Sean Penn] is using an XM177E1 not the XM177E2.
The XM177E2 had a grenade ring aft of the moderator.

The technical advising in that movie [for a Vietnam War film] is excellent.

But the movie as a whole always makes me sick to my stomach...
1966 M151A1

Post Reply