I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
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- retiredpara
- Master Sergeant
- Posts: 373
- Joined: September 5th, 2013, 12:19 pm
- Location: SW MO... Come see Branson!
I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Okay, here is another thread. Lets talk about the whole MUTT thing.
I care about historical accuracy. I never let my college professors get away with calling vietnam vets murderers. I always challenged them, pissed them off, and won my arguments because I used facts.
I contend it originated by Ford, as they wanted to enter the jeep market, but couldnt call their 1/4 ton creation a jeep, for obvious reasons.
Ford called it thus in their employee newspaper. Maybe more than once.
Some alledge the first PS magazine called it a MUTT. Or the first PS magazine after the 151 was to be issued. I have never seen it, but I believe it.
Later, some author used it. I dont know who. I would guess the first book it was seen in was in the Japanese cartoon-like magazine/book published in 1976. Now hard to find and expensive.
MV magazine and it's writers have used the term as gospel, and one of their writers has published a "book" that calls it such. He contends it is settled, and references the Ford article. The MV encyclopedia published years ago used it too I believe, and many took it from that.
I contend that is why so many today just accept it. It is a fave propaganda technique, just keep repeating the same thing, eventually everybody believes it.
None of the above are official Army issue documents. The only thing somewhat "official" would be PS magazine, but I have plenty of later versions of this that never call it a MUTT, IIRC at least once they call it a jeep. I have literally seen hundreds of unit property books, hand receipts, driver's licenses, Modification Work Orders, Modified Table of Organization and Equipment documents, correspondence from Department of the Army, from TACOM, from various division HQ, etc., and never once observed any reference to the 151 series trucks as MUTT.
Interesting that some claim they used this term on active duty. Less interesting is the 2nd/3rd hand info, "I knew a guy who said they all used it"...I never heard it at all until sometime after 2000.
I propose we all start calling the P-51 Mustang a "Stallion", the M4 Sherman a "Custer", or the P-38 Lightning the "Bolt", just because we can. Not so much of a stretch, right, after all, truth today is subjective...
Not losing sleep over this. But facts are facts, and I've enough Italian in me to be passionate about such things. The initial and subsequent procurement and issue documents do not reference a MUTT. Ford did, and that don't mean squat, as my grandpappy would say.
If you guys think it is flogging the proverbial deceased equine so be it. But I think if we are real caretakers of history we should get things right. It's yours now, call it what you want, (Mine is Janet, she is a good listener ), but don't represent it at displays as a MUTT, as that is a term the real military never used.
Am I wrong? Please show me a official document that would have been used as part of the fielding of these old dogs. I have yet to see one.
I care about historical accuracy. I never let my college professors get away with calling vietnam vets murderers. I always challenged them, pissed them off, and won my arguments because I used facts.
I contend it originated by Ford, as they wanted to enter the jeep market, but couldnt call their 1/4 ton creation a jeep, for obvious reasons.
Ford called it thus in their employee newspaper. Maybe more than once.
Some alledge the first PS magazine called it a MUTT. Or the first PS magazine after the 151 was to be issued. I have never seen it, but I believe it.
Later, some author used it. I dont know who. I would guess the first book it was seen in was in the Japanese cartoon-like magazine/book published in 1976. Now hard to find and expensive.
MV magazine and it's writers have used the term as gospel, and one of their writers has published a "book" that calls it such. He contends it is settled, and references the Ford article. The MV encyclopedia published years ago used it too I believe, and many took it from that.
I contend that is why so many today just accept it. It is a fave propaganda technique, just keep repeating the same thing, eventually everybody believes it.
None of the above are official Army issue documents. The only thing somewhat "official" would be PS magazine, but I have plenty of later versions of this that never call it a MUTT, IIRC at least once they call it a jeep. I have literally seen hundreds of unit property books, hand receipts, driver's licenses, Modification Work Orders, Modified Table of Organization and Equipment documents, correspondence from Department of the Army, from TACOM, from various division HQ, etc., and never once observed any reference to the 151 series trucks as MUTT.
Interesting that some claim they used this term on active duty. Less interesting is the 2nd/3rd hand info, "I knew a guy who said they all used it"...I never heard it at all until sometime after 2000.
I propose we all start calling the P-51 Mustang a "Stallion", the M4 Sherman a "Custer", or the P-38 Lightning the "Bolt", just because we can. Not so much of a stretch, right, after all, truth today is subjective...
Not losing sleep over this. But facts are facts, and I've enough Italian in me to be passionate about such things. The initial and subsequent procurement and issue documents do not reference a MUTT. Ford did, and that don't mean squat, as my grandpappy would say.
If you guys think it is flogging the proverbial deceased equine so be it. But I think if we are real caretakers of history we should get things right. It's yours now, call it what you want, (Mine is Janet, she is a good listener ), but don't represent it at displays as a MUTT, as that is a term the real military never used.
Am I wrong? Please show me a official document that would have been used as part of the fielding of these old dogs. I have yet to see one.
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
I started my service in '74 and finished in 04. My first job was a redeye gunner driving a jeep. We called them jeeps, quarter ton and sometimes 151. I finished my active time in the 1CD DMMC as we were transitioning to the M998. The first time I ever heard MUTT was on the G503.
BTW, we were in Branson yesterday.
BTW, we were in Branson yesterday.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
-------------------------------------
"I once was one of those men."
salt6
http://www.mg42.us
George Orwell
-------------------------------------
"I once was one of those men."
salt6
http://www.mg42.us
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
i did my active time from 69-71, driving the 151's in vietnam and ft ord. never heard the term mutt until i got to the 503. don't care for it much, and i think your post is correct and spot on. so hit 'em agin, bubba, he's still wigglin'!
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
I love it! I was Airborne so I did not have much contact with them in service, they were just a bunch of ants running all over the place. But Rainman is going to basking in glory over this and I have to agree with him and all of you, the mutt term grew over the years on these forums. BUT......................... You should have NEVER asked for an official document because Ken is 6 hours ahead of us and he is digging away as we talk. He has every know document ever printed that pertains to the M-151.
This is gonna be good.
This is gonna be good.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
- raymond
- Major General
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Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Raymond
"On the day when crime puts on the apparel of innocence, through a curious reversal peculiar to our age, it is innocence that is called on to justify itself." Albert Camus
"On the day when crime puts on the apparel of innocence, through a curious reversal peculiar to our age, it is innocence that is called on to justify itself." Albert Camus
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
MUTT...MUTT.....MUTT....MUTT.....but NOT a Jeep ! Seabee
1971 M151A2 MUTT , M416 trailer
NMCB 62, Delta Co.,BU2, Gulfport, MS Home Port
VFW 3838, American Legion 63
Seabee Association of America LM , NMCB 62 Assoc.
"Performance Under Fire" US Navy Seabees '69-'72
National Assoc. of Atomic Veterans/ Amchitka
SEMO University Vet Corp Alumni
MVPA#32091
NMCB 62, Delta Co.,BU2, Gulfport, MS Home Port
VFW 3838, American Legion 63
Seabee Association of America LM , NMCB 62 Assoc.
"Performance Under Fire" US Navy Seabees '69-'72
National Assoc. of Atomic Veterans/ Amchitka
SEMO University Vet Corp Alumni
MVPA#32091
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Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
What is a good brand of windshield washer fluid for uh "my green thing" ....
slowest mutt east of the missippi..
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Hmmmmm.......that reminds me. There was an old joke that was always heard by passengers on board one of the car ferries returning to Dover, England after leaving Ostend, Belgium. As the ferry approached Dover port, the captain would announce..."Ladies and Gentlemen, we are now about to arrive at Dover, please set your watches back one hour" to which the semi-drunken passengers would shout in unison....."and 25 years".rickf wrote:................You should have NEVER asked for an official document because Ken is 6 hours ahead of us and he is digging away as we talk. He has every know document ever printed that pertains to the M-151.
Anyway, let's see if we can sort out the facts as opposed to the myths.
The first mention of the acronym "MUTT" was in the house magazine "Ford Times" of October 1959. Rather than describe what it said....have a look below:-
As you can see, the acronym stands for "Military Utility Tactical Truck" and NOT any of the other combinations which have appeared in print and on the web. This was a Ford acronym, not an Army one.
Now, a question for everyone. The myth is that an Army pub (some say PS Magazine) used the term "MUTT" and this is where the semi-official usage of the term came from. Can anyone here point me to this publication? I don't particularly want to see comments like..."a bloke in the bar who knew a guy in the Army who said.....". If you think it's in an official/semi-official publication.....let's hear it.
I know the answer....who else does?
Ken
Kind regards....
Ken
Always wanted - Details and pictures of M416 Trailer data plates & M151 data plates & body-tags for my research. Thanks!
Contact address - - muttguru@aol.com
Note for 2023..... Ken..."Less Stress - More Exercise!"
Ken
Always wanted - Details and pictures of M416 Trailer data plates & M151 data plates & body-tags for my research. Thanks!
Contact address - - muttguru@aol.com
Note for 2023..... Ken..."Less Stress - More Exercise!"
- retiredpara
- Master Sergeant
- Posts: 373
- Joined: September 5th, 2013, 12:19 pm
- Location: SW MO... Come see Branson!
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Ken,
I flew into Ostende once, then out again and into Rhein-Main. A soviet spy plane had been following our troop carriers and also landed to refuel...I forget the type of AC, it had a large satellite on top, similar to some of our planes. This was during REFORGER 86.
My dad was stationed at Seething, south of Norwich, during the war with the 448th BG. He was in B-24s. Bad stuff. If you can make time, go down to the airfield there. The Waveney Flying Club maintains it as one of the only operational runways left from the war. The 448th BG Association, headed by English folk who were youngsters during the war, have restored the control tower, some other buildings. They have a museum that contains much info about the 448th, and it's flyers. Many of the old vets and their families would go visit when they were still young enough to. Most have passed now, sadly.
PS Magazine is an official publication of the US Army. My point is that if the term was used in that pub, it doesnt mean much. They employ civilian illustrators, editors, etc., and have got things wrong in the past, then corrected by an actual "green suiter", an officer somewhere in the food chain that had some form of oversight on the publication.
I would be curious to see if early contracts used this term, as I have seen no TACOM documents, or logistical documents that ever referred to it as such. I even downloaded what is on the national archives and can find no reference to MUTT in those contracts...So come on man! Show us your stuff!
I flew into Ostende once, then out again and into Rhein-Main. A soviet spy plane had been following our troop carriers and also landed to refuel...I forget the type of AC, it had a large satellite on top, similar to some of our planes. This was during REFORGER 86.
My dad was stationed at Seething, south of Norwich, during the war with the 448th BG. He was in B-24s. Bad stuff. If you can make time, go down to the airfield there. The Waveney Flying Club maintains it as one of the only operational runways left from the war. The 448th BG Association, headed by English folk who were youngsters during the war, have restored the control tower, some other buildings. They have a museum that contains much info about the 448th, and it's flyers. Many of the old vets and their families would go visit when they were still young enough to. Most have passed now, sadly.
PS Magazine is an official publication of the US Army. My point is that if the term was used in that pub, it doesnt mean much. They employ civilian illustrators, editors, etc., and have got things wrong in the past, then corrected by an actual "green suiter", an officer somewhere in the food chain that had some form of oversight on the publication.
I would be curious to see if early contracts used this term, as I have seen no TACOM documents, or logistical documents that ever referred to it as such. I even downloaded what is on the national archives and can find no reference to MUTT in those contracts...So come on man! Show us your stuff!
- retiredpara
- Master Sergeant
- Posts: 373
- Joined: September 5th, 2013, 12:19 pm
- Location: SW MO... Come see Branson!
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Awesome! I would have loved to come down and share lunch with you.salt6 wrote:I started my service in '74 and finished in 04. My first job was a redeye gunner driving a jeep. We called them jeeps, quarter ton and sometimes 151. I finished my active time in the 1CD DMMC as we were transitioning to the M998. The first time I ever heard MUTT was on the G503.
BTW, we were in Branson yesterday.
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
That looks like a camel.... If we can beat camels instead of horses, then all sorts of other things could happen. This sort of thing is exactly how M151s start getting called Mutts.
Silliness aside.
The more things change the more they stay the same. HMMWVs are often mistakenly called Hummers in the newer Military. Mostly by new Soldiers/Marines, who don't know any better. Blame AMG. It is the commonality between the two trucks.
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
not again...
Even worse than asking what is the correct oil to use on a 911 forum.
Even worse than asking what is the correct oil to use on a 911 forum.
Horst
1972 USMC M151A2 w/ROPS (ex Barstow) and M416
1962 M201 and trailer
1966 GTO,1982 E350 Skoolie, 1987 SJ413, 1987 911
Gone: 2xM35A2c, Unimog 404S, Hanomag AL28, DKW Munga
1972 USMC M151A2 w/ROPS (ex Barstow) and M416
1962 M201 and trailer
1966 GTO,1982 E350 Skoolie, 1987 SJ413, 1987 911
Gone: 2xM35A2c, Unimog 404S, Hanomag AL28, DKW Munga
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Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Every jeep is a mobile utility tactical truck ,they are all mobile, tactical and utilitarian, as is a deuce,and m-211,and every military truck made. IMHO every quarter ton is a jeep....if it walks like a jeep and quacks like a jeep and has a 4 cylinder like a jeep.......need I say more?
Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Ken ; was it Ford Times,June 1961?
mark
mark
mark
1968 m274A5
1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
1971 m416
1968 m274A5
1960 m151
1981 m151A2
1964 m416
1971 m416
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Re: I'm your Huckleberry-Longwinded post
Wow........ So it's on Ford' publication (the one shown and others) and it gets picked up and used. Maybe not official military doctrine but be it quarter ton, jeep, mutt, green thing, off roader, it's still the coolest off road vehicle around. CORVA
1976 M151A2 4 Color Cammo Mutt, aquired August 09
1976 or 7? M151A2 "Miss Sandy" Driver, aquired May 2010
Former owner M151A2 "Miss Saigon" Vietnam Rescue Sold Sept 09
Fond appreciation for the M151 Breed!!
1976 or 7? M151A2 "Miss Sandy" Driver, aquired May 2010
Former owner M151A2 "Miss Saigon" Vietnam Rescue Sold Sept 09
Fond appreciation for the M151 Breed!!