Mine died today

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Re: Mine died today

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Re: Mine died today

Postby Hambone » July 19th, 2018, 8:51 am

Never take for granted the NOS Swiss module is good, worked on Incomings' jeep last year, turned out to be bad NOS module.
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Re: Mine died today

Postby kmam » July 19th, 2018, 3:29 pm

That is on the list for next time I am with the MUTT. Will post the result.
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Re: Mine died today

Postby Fil Bonica » July 19th, 2018, 3:46 pm

Was the module new or recent production?
In all these years . Used probably installed a dozen and I have never seen an out of the box failure of a genuine swiss controls module.
Seen cracked rotor and bruised wiring.
Hope you are finally coming to an end of this saga!
Good luck


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Re: Mine died today

Postby kmam » July 19th, 2018, 3:51 pm

This is the module, that I think was a takeout when I got it, that I replaced with a new one. Thanks for the wishes.
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Re: Mine died today

Postby kmam » July 25th, 2018, 3:57 am

So, here is the latest. I checked the new Swiss Control Module and found that the voltages when it switched (0V, 24V) matched what I expected and showed that the module that was in it when engine failed ( and switches between 18.8V and 24V) was faulty and the cause of the failure. The problem is that something else has happened since then that prevents it starting and whatever that is must be, to some extent, intermittent as the engine did start after three weeks or so of trying but only ran for a short period - would not restart after it had been turned off.

We know we have fuel to and through the carbie, we know we have air to and through the carbie, we know we have spark, we know that when the engine was running the timing was spot on and we know that it will not start regardless of anything we do. At this stage it is clearly an enigma as the earlier posts will show we have tried all the logical steps and followed through on all suggestions.

Now we are looking for a fault that is outside of the range of logical explanations. If we have fuel, spark and air into the cylinder but it does not fire one illogical explanation is that the control of the timing varies in some way but occasionally is correct and that is when the engine fires. On Saturday we are going to pull off the timing cover to examine that area and remove the distributor to examine its drive to see if something weird is happening with either of them.
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Re: Mine died today

Postby rickf » July 25th, 2018, 9:03 am

I don't think you will find anything under the timing cover, it is gear drive and if it was right before (it ran well so it was) then it will still be right. The distributor drive is either working or broken, it cannot be intermittent. It is a solid shaft so if the rotor is lining up with the proper terminal then the shaft is good. One thing that could be a problem is the advance weights but they can only go so far and that is not far enough to prevent some sort of fire even if it is a kickback or backfire. Gasoline fouled spark plugs can cause the problem you are describing. I had described before how to burn off the fouling with a torch. There is another route you can take that is a bit primitive but can help with costs in this situation. If you can source good spark plug wires from a civilian car then you can use regular spark plugs for getting it running. I do not remember the exact cross on the plugs, for some reason J8 comes to mind but all you need for this is to match the thread length and diameter. Heat range will not matter as far as just getting it running. Just pull the boot back on the civilian wares that went on the distributor cap and shove that end down in the military cap. If too loose a twig similar stuck next to the wire will hold it in. This is just for getting it going.
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Re: Mine died today

Postby m3a1 » July 25th, 2018, 10:09 am

I think we all agree we are looking for a variable condition in the timing at this point, eh?

I'm going to tell you a little story about a man, named Jed. No, really, his name was Jed! Jed brought me his late 60's Oldsmobile Cutlass that was behaving similarly to yours...which is to say it got brought in on a wrecker. The car was suffering from on-again, off-again, Intermittent firing. Never seemed to run and then start again without a lot of dramas. In fact, I would only get it to start with some guarantee of success when we fiddled with the distributor to find that magic spot where it would fire and so, I came to the conclusion that it was a timing issue but, like yours, I was getting good compression. So, there is timing (where you have the engine's upper and lower halves working synchronously and then there is ignition timing where the ignition system is working synchronously with the rest of the engine. I got to the point where I was so frustrated with it I just walked away from it for a day and let it "simmer on the back burner" while I worked on easier projects. After a day, I went straight to the culprit..

Yup. the rotor was sloppy loose on the post. So, check yours!

Cheers,
TJ
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Re: Mine died today

Postby D Pizzoferrato » July 26th, 2018, 6:39 am

rickf wrote:. I do not remember the exact cross on the plugs, for some reason J8 comes to mind


Your memory is still active Rick. J8 has been my go to for timing light hookups for years.
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Re: Mine died today

Postby kmam » July 28th, 2018, 1:45 am

PROBLEM SOLVED - 99% sure...

We always knew it would be something simple when we found it but never realised how simple: a cracked distributor cap. But why did it take so long to find and how did this come about? Well here is the story...

When I was restoring the MUTT the distributor cap was pretty horrible and it used a Prestolite ignition module so I decided to replace the cap with a new one and the module with a Swiss Control, primarily because the Prestolite had a reputation for breaking down when the epoxy gave way and the Swiss had a reputation for reliability.

So all went well. The engine was fully rebuilt and many other repairs were done. Finally it was on the road and running happily, well pretty happily but there was the occasional concern about lack of smooth running of the engine. Anyway I happily took it up bush for a drive and then the problem began. It ran well for about 40 miles to my mates place at about 50mph. Ran fine on the bush run but did have some problems idling so I had to keep the revs up. Then we stopped for a break and half an hour later it would not start.

It never started again and we went through all the logical steps including carbie checkout, distributor pull apart (including the cap) and finally decided the Swiss Control module was the culprit. Took a while to get from the States but it arrived and full of hope installed it - nothing. From there on we kept going around in circles until after about five weeks we once more bypassed the condensor and, voila, it started! It ran a little rough but we were able to check the timing, adjust the idle and set the mixture. Turned it off, had a celebratory cuppa and then came back to - NOTHING! totally dead once more.

Today we once again pulled the distributor cap and saw melting on the outside! Closely examining it under a magnifier revealed several small cracks. We used a soldering iron to weld the cracks, put it back together and it started immediately. So what was the scenario that I believe created all this?

To me it seems the Swiss Control module was always faulty and putting out a weak spark. Too weak to break through any cracks in the distributor cap but strong enough to run the engine. When I eventually replaced the module with a new one, which gave off a beautiful strong blue spark, the HT was now enough to break through the insulation to the metal distributor case meaning no spark was getting to the plugs when they were under load (as I understand it the path between the spark plug electrode and earth offers greater resistance when under compression which must have been greater than the resistance through the cracks to the metal case). Thus we had a new problem with the same symptoms but all the signs (spark when plugs were not screwed in, fuel spraying through to the manifold, rotor at the correct position for number 1 TDC) told us it should fire, even though there was not a hint of ignition. Why did it run a week ago for a short time and then run rough and fail? Hard to be sure but I suspect that when I reassembled the distributor after bypassing the condensor the stress on the cap may have been sufficiently different to force the break together temporarily.

So we were caught by two consecutive faults with the same symptoms and therefore concluded the error checking we had carried out early in the piece was valid after the second cause developed. Well that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

For any that wish to check the condition of a Swiss Control module I found that applying 24V to the red (+ve) and black (-ve) wires and a multimeter to the red (+ve) and green (-ve) wires would give a reading on the meter of 0V or 24V when metal was transitioned between the sensor and the magnet. If the readings were higher than 0V or significantly lower than 24V you can consider the module faulty, even if it is still giving some spark. I cannot guarantee this test but it certainly worked for me.

Hopefully there is something in this story that will help others in the future. I am about to order a new distributor cap and when it arrives will (fingers crossed) change the first line from 99% to 100%.

Finally, my heartfelt thanks to all those who posted helpful suggestions during this painful journey :(
Howard

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Re: Mine died today

Postby rickf » July 28th, 2018, 7:48 am

FINALLY!!!!! It is always the little one that bites you. Well, you should have plenty of spare parts now. I still say if you are going to be far off road to convert to points, they are far easier t diagnose and also easier to fix if they fail. So this means that there is absolutely nothing that you have not replaced on that engine right?
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Re: Mine died today

Postby kmam » July 28th, 2018, 2:33 pm

Haven’t replaced the block or head...

Yeah still looking for a points kit or plate it all mounts on. Just looking forward to finally being able to enjoy it!
Howard

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Re: Mine died today

Postby Fil Bonica » July 28th, 2018, 8:05 pm

Aren’t you happy you didn’t sell the beast???
Congrats on your persistance.

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Re: Mine died today

Postby kmam » July 28th, 2018, 11:30 pm

Yes I am Fil. It has been a long road since I took delivery but I can now see myself very shortly enjoying the fruits of my (or rather, everyone elses) labours! From when I first saw one about three years ago I have been keen to enjoy driving one around but I never imagined how long and difficult it would be to achieve that goal. I certainly could not have done it without assistance from my local friends and guidance from m G838 friends!
Howard

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Re: Mine died today

Postby rickf » July 29th, 2018, 7:35 am

And HOW much has this mutt cost you so far?! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
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Re: Mine died today

Postby kmam » July 29th, 2018, 1:22 pm

Just about enough to buy a new 4x4 dual cab ute! Or to put it another way, not enough to cost me my marriage but enough to mean I have to keep working...
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