13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb.. UPDATE 19 JUL FIXED!

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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rickf » July 15th, 2018, 5:19 pm

You will need to source the original fitting that goes on the manifold for the PCV valve and vent. You need item #6

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1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rstel01 » July 15th, 2018, 6:22 pm

rickf wrote:Alright, There is your problem! That line is supposed to be a vent line that goes THROUGH the factory fitting and into the fitting on top of the carburetor. The only fitting that utilizes manifold vacuum there is the PCV. And by the way, I am also a rebuilder of these carbs and have 45 years of rebuilding carburetor experience. I know who you are talking and I will say no more about that!

Anyway, Take that line from the crankcase off of the fitting on the manifold and block the port on the fitting and see how it runs.


Rick, thanks

I'd call it marginally better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYmkFgVNXBk
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rickf » July 15th, 2018, 6:53 pm

Ok, I am not liking that vacuum reading. I can tell from the sound of it that the throttle is held pretty far open so the vacuum is going to be low. Here is why you probably have the surge. This is not the reason for the problem, just the surge. The accelerator pump is vacuum operated so as the engine dies out and almost stalls the vacuum falls to nothing and the pumps shoots in it's "last" shot of gas before shutdown. This causes the surge as it gets more gas and as it surges it draws more gas from the bowl in the high speed circuit. That is what you are seeing and the most likely cause for the surge. NOW, Why is it doing it? My first check would be to spray all around the intake manifold with the air hose to the air cleaner hooked up, it sounds like you have already done that and proven out no leaks. Next would be a check of the distributor, you have done that. Valves have been covered. Timing is iffy but will not cause what I am seeing here. You say that the idle mixture has little to no effect so lets eliminate the carbs as the issue, two carbs, actually three if you add in the original problem all with the same problem. Not likely a carb issue. The last thing I have to offer is to pull the timing cover and see if the gears are in time.
Have you done a compression check?
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rstel01 » July 16th, 2018, 6:48 am

rickf wrote:Ok, I am not liking that vacuum reading. I can tell from the sound of it that the throttle is held pretty far open so the vacuum is going to be low. Here is why you probably have the surge. This is not the reason for the problem, just the surge. The accelerator pump is vacuum operated so as the engine dies out and almost stalls the vacuum falls to nothing and the pumps shoots in it's "last" shot of gas before shutdown. This causes the surge as it gets more gas and as it surges it draws more gas from the bowl in the high speed circuit. That is what you are seeing and the most likely cause for the surge. NOW, Why is it doing it? My first check would be to spray all around the intake manifold with the air hose to the air cleaner hooked up, it sounds like you have already done that and proven out no leaks. Next would be a check of the distributor, you have done that. Valves have been covered. Timing is iffy but will not cause what I am seeing here. You say that the idle mixture has little to no effect so lets eliminate the carbs as the issue, two carbs, actually three if you add in the original problem all with the same problem. Not likely a carb issue. The last thing I have to offer is to pull the timing cover and see if the gears are in time.
Have you done a compression check?


Rick,

Thank you for your input and review of my issues, I'm probally the 50th person in this party over the past almost 50 years.

So, I'm going to nuke it from orbit.

Going back to trying carb cleaner around the intake, it does seem to change RPM range.

I'm at a loss, considering I straight edged everything, used hi-temp over the intake gaskets, etc.

Maybe it is still allot of "little" leaks on the sealing service. So, i've got a new Intake Manifold coming with all the misc fitting to put it back to stock. Possibily the ears that go over the exhaust manifold have a slight bend/tweak and it still is not getting a true seal?

I'm going to Prussian Blue the new manifold to the head and see what is going on. Worse case if I can't get to the root cause, I'll get a smoke machine and start working that way

Also have a new 13660 BZ coming from Nofar
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rickf » July 16th, 2018, 10:08 am

They haven't had the BZ for a couple years now, what you are getting is the 13660B. Same thing. After what they did with their kit prices I hate to think of what they did with the carb prices. When you tightened the intake and exhaust down did you follow the torque specs in the book? They are substantially lighter than you would think and the outer bolts are lighter than the inner bolts. If these are tightened too tight they elongate the exhaust manifold and that can cause problems. I would run the idle mixture screw all the way in to the bottom very gently and then back it out 2 full turns. This is a good preliminary starting point and is always within a half turn of where it should be. see what you get with that and try to get the idle down from screaming to around 1200 for the leak test. Put the air filter hose on as this will help in atomizing and also prevent false reading with the test. That also does not look like a standard PCV valve so if you can find the correct one that is just another part of the puzzle that can be eliminated. At least make sure that one is working and not flowing full bore vacuum.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rstel01 » July 16th, 2018, 10:25 am

rickf wrote:They haven't had the BZ for a couple years now, what you are getting is the 13660B. Same thing. After what they did with their kit prices I hate to think of what they did with the carb prices. When you tightened the intake and exhaust down did you follow the torque specs in the book? They are substantially lighter than you would think and the outer bolts are lighter than the inner bolts. If these are tightened too tight they elongate the exhaust manifold and that can cause problems. I would run the idle mixture screw all the way in to the bottom very gently and then back it out 2 full turns. This is a good preliminary starting point and is always within a half turn of where it should be. see what you get with that and try to get the idle down from screaming to around 1200 for the leak test. Put the air filter hose on as this will help in atomizing and also prevent false reading with the test. That also does not look like a standard PCV valve so if you can find the correct one that is just another part of the puzzle that can be eliminated. At least make sure that one is working and not flowing full bore vacuum.


Rick,

Thanks, yes I followed the torque for the intake (18-20 lb ft If I recall correctly to what was in the spec sheet) and procedure (starting at the inner uppers, then the outboards uppers, then the lower two on the "fingers") and same for exhaust.

The PCV is from my same M151 supplier and it is supposed to be NOS.
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rickf » July 16th, 2018, 10:28 am

It could be a newer version I am not used to seeing.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby Horst » July 16th, 2018, 4:04 pm

time to change the supplier, I agree with Rick, this is the wrong part
Horst

1972 USMC M151A2 w/ROPS and M416
1962 M201 and trailer
1966 Pontiac GTO
1987 Suzuki Samurai
1987 911
1982 Ford E350 Cutaway Skoolie
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby Fil Bonica » July 16th, 2018, 4:35 pm

Srveral questions come to mind.
1, Have you carefullyexamined the way the intake gaskets are alined with the manifold and head?
2, if you used the iintake and exhaust on an old style head you could experience leaking without doubling up on the intake gasket.
3, have you Carefully examined the aluminum surface of the manifold.
It’s a casting and could could have holes.
4, when plumbing the PCV did you connect things properly.
A lot of the symptoms you describe can happen isnt t done properly.
Dont ask me how I know!
Hope this helps.
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb.. UPDATE 19 JUL FI

Postby rstel01 » July 19th, 2018, 6:47 pm

https://youtu.be/_xqQdWrI99Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0I5OB9__9E

Thank you Rick and all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a journey.. What a fight

I had to use all my old school Jedi powers and it was a multi phased problem. As I've only had it 2 or 3 months now, I'll bet it has run like the proverbial "basket of buttholes" for decades.

1: Vac leaks, some induced from fixing the exhaust leaks, some from machining differences in either NOS manifold vs original or, original. Taking a brand new one and going Prussian Blue from surface to surface (straightness was checked previously) showed an incorrect mating surface being caused by the ribs where it goes over the exhaust manifold (also NOS now)

Image

Some hillbilly machining with die grinder on ribs, polishing with rotoloc and a liberal application of hi-temp copper took care of this.

2. The PCV set up (Thanks Rick), god knows what happened there with the shared crank vent to manifold.. all replaced with NOS

3. Timing. It's good but, even procuring an adjustable timing light that I can set to zero still shows a 15deg variance from timing mark. I found oil pump/dist loose so someone must of changed and put a tooth off. Not going to worry about it now, runs great at the proverbial 2 fingers

4: Coil replaced with NOS

5 Carb: The one that came from Norfar was a NOS 13660B. It is beautiful, it still has the anti-tamper plug but I'm going to leave it alone. The lesson is, I spent weeks on rebuilding the one myself and the "Rebuilt" one from my supplier frankly was no better. Just for fun, ran new manifold with "new rebuilt" carb and still was marginal.. $295 lesson learned, considering the new one from Norfar was around $350 why did I even waste my time.

It is incredible, it is so spot on I don't even know it is running at 650ish rpm. I can stand behind it without my eyes burning violently and the tailpipe shaking itself silly. Yes, it does have that slight 13660 "flat spot" during acceleration off idle. I'm sure I could remove anti-tamper plug and give a 1/2 turn or so. However, I'm going to revel in the joy of success
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby rstel01 » July 19th, 2018, 7:07 pm

Horst wrote:time to change the supplier, I agree with Rick, this is the wrong part


Hi, Are you actually in Munchen? Is there a big amount of 151's and parts still there?

I've worked for Knorr-Bremse in the US for almost 20 years now and am frequently over
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb.. UPDATE 19 JUL FI

Postby Surveyor » July 19th, 2018, 7:15 pm

Ahhhh, I remember this now. Had similar problem. My early style head was bad so I replaced it with the later big boss style but kept the original intake manifold and exhaust. Had to grind down the outer edge slightly of the two bolt hole areas to the left side of the picture that hold down the exhaust for everything to mate up correctly. The angle that it set down on made the "tips" sit on the new larger flats first. Apologies for being late to the party!

Image


Used intake gaskets
Image

and locktight silver anti-seize for exhaust graphite replacement.
1960 M151 Run #1 (working on it)
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb.. UPDATE 19 JUL FI

Postby rickf » July 19th, 2018, 8:57 pm

Surveyor, That is very good info to know. I would say it must be selective because I did the same combo on mine with no issues like that but it is something to look out for and IF you have a vacuum leak after changing heads or intakes THAT is a place to look.
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb.. UPDATE 19 JUL FI

Postby Fil Bonica » July 19th, 2018, 10:15 pm

Had a conversation with Bernie Matiniak some time ago ref the use of the manifold gasket set on some early heads.
It was his suggestion that when using the exhaust seal gaskets kit on an old style head it would be wise to double up on the intake gasket to compensate for the new height of the exhaust manifold and allowing the intake manifold seal properly.
Hope this helps.

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Re: 13660B Well Tube, Any Experts on Carb

Postby Horst » July 20th, 2018, 5:53 am

rstel01 wrote:
Horst wrote:time to change the supplier, I agree with Rick, this is the wrong part


Hi, Are you actually in Munchen? Is there a big amount of 151's and parts still there?

I've worked for Knorr-Bremse in the US for almost 20 years now and am frequently over


Yep, that's where I live. I know a few 151s in the area but not a lot. Parts supply has not been an issue so far, but I also sourced from the US.

Part of the old Knorr-Bremse building has been sold to BMW, they now host their classical BMW department there. As a matter of fact, I will be going there tomorrow with my 151, they have a classical car meet every 2nd week or so.
Horst

1972 USMC M151A2 w/ROPS and M416
1962 M201 and trailer
1966 Pontiac GTO
1987 Suzuki Samurai
1987 911
1982 Ford E350 Cutaway Skoolie
Gone: 2xM35A2c, Unimog 404S, Hanomag AL28, DKW Munga
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