$127,000 Growler

[Floyd]

From Raleigh News - Thursday 01/24...

Osprey's assault vehicles can't haul ammo -
Aircraft go to Iraq without them

Joseph Neff, Staff Writer
When the Marines shipped their V-22 Osprey aircraft to Iraq last year, they had to leave behind the assault vehicles and mobile mortar system that fit inside the planes.
The Marines' new mortar system can't safely carry its ammunition.

That conclusion, from a government audit, is the most recent bad news for the Marines' attempt to ferry firepower inside the Osprey. The Defense Department inspector general is investigating the program, which is two years behind schedule and $15 million over budget.

The system consists of a jeeplike vehicle called the Growler that pulls trailers carrying mortars and ammunition.

The Growler, made in Robbins, N.C., costs $127,000 each and cannot safely pull its ammunition trailer, according to interviews and the report from the Government Accountability Office. The trailer has a tendency to bounce or tip over, which could crush a Marine riding in the back of the Growler. A Growler, not pulling a trailer, was reported to have tipped over last summer when it swerved to avoid a turtle in the road.

The Marines won't discuss the program, known as the Expeditionary Fire Support System, because of the Defense Department's investigation.

The problems were predictable, said Philip Coyle, who directed the Pentagon's weapons testing from 1994 to 2001. The Marines decided to start production before testing the vehicle and mortars, Coyle said.

"It is a sign of rushing to failure," he said.

The Osprey is a rotorcraft that takes off and lands like a helicopter and tilts its huge rotors forward to fly like an airplane. The aircraft, which costs $119 million each, has suffered cost overruns, a string of crashes that left 30 dead, and repeated watering down of specifications during its two decades of development. The Pentagon has declared that most of the Osprey's problems have been fixed, and the first squadron of 12 Ospreys went to Iraq in October.

In 1999, the Marines decided the Osprey program needed assault vehicles to carry men and mortars on the battlefield. Some Growlers will pull the mortar systems on trailers. Others will be outfitted with a machine gun. The Ospreys are designed to take off from ships and go inland faster than helicopters. Once they land, the Growlers would provide assault firepower or machine gun cover for Marines on foot.

In soliciting bids in 2004, the Marines announced they had "an aggressive schedule."

In November 2004, the Marines awarded the contract to General Dynamics, which produced the mortar system. The defense giant uses a company in Robbins, Carolina Growler, to build a modified dune buggy with a design that recalls Vietnam-era jeeps.

Gov. Mike Easley awarded Carolina Growler a $25,000 grant, and U.S. Rep. Howard Coble helped get a $300,000 grant and a $112,000 loan for the company from the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

Contract complaint

The contract award was controversial because the founder of Carolina Growler, Terry Crews, is a retired Marine colonel with strong connections. The Defense Department received an anonymous complaint claiming that Crews was a close friend of Brig. Gen. William Catto, who headed the agency that awarded the contract, Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va.

The complainant, who identified himself as a career procurement professional, said Catto steered the contract to Carolina Growler and General Dynamics.

After demonstrations from three companies, the selection committee recommended the contract go to a team of United Defense, which supplied the mortar, and Rae-Beck Automotive of Michigan, which built a new vehicle from scratch. According to the complaint, the United Defense bid was technically superior and cost less, while the Growler flunked crucial tests and was coupled to a much more expensive mortar system.

The Marine Corps inspector general corroborated much of the complaint but concluded that Catto did not influence the contract award or create a sense of impropriety. Its investigation was separate from the Defense Department's investigation, which is continuing.
Catto, who has been promoted to the U.S. European Command, could not be reached. Crews declined to be interviewed.

Jerry Bazinski, who owns Rae-Beck, said he designed his vehicle to meet all the original specifications. Most important, Bazinski said, his vehicle carried the mortar and ammunition. He said his system was faster, safer and more stable because it avoided using a trailer.

"Anybody worth their salt will tell you when you introduce a trailer, you have greatly diminished mobility and stability," Bazinski said. "You've increased the probability of rollover by multiple times, especially behind an extremely narrow 60-inch vehicle."

Specs diluted

Before the contract was awarded, the Marines eased critical requirements. The vehicle had to reach only 5 mph off the road, the equivalent of a brisk walk. The requirement to climb a 12-inch obstacle, such as a downed telephone pole, was dropped. A Growler pulling a trailer could never have met the original requirements, Bazinski said; the changes allowed the Growler to stay in the running.

A change that has Bazinski fuming concerned the Marines' requirement that the vehicle be capable of "driving onto/off the aircraft in both forward and reverse directions."

At the demonstration in the summer of 2004, Bazinski's vehicle had trouble backing up the ramp into the Osprey with a full load of ammunition. The Marines told him he had 48 hours to fix it or fail the test.

A colleague flew in from Michigan with a larger gear for reverse, and Bazinski and his crew installed it. The vehicle passed the test within the 48-hour frame, he said.

The Growler, however, could not drive in and out of the Osprey with its trailer attached. In August 2004, the selection committee recommended Bazinski's vehicle and the United Defense mortar.

Two months later, the Marines gave the Growler a second chance by reinterpreting the requirements: Trailers should be loaded separately instead of being driven on or off the aircraft by the vehicle. The trailer could be pushed or winched onto the plane.

Within a week, the Growler passed after being allowed to take the test again.

"From what I've seen," Bazinski said, "the performance specs were chasing the vehicle, rather than the vehicle being built to fit the specs."

Bill Crisp, the president of American Growler, disagreed.

"There has been no watering down of functional specs as far as I know," Crisp said.

Crisp, however, would not answer specific questions, referring questions to General Dynamics or the Marine Corps.

Tends to tip over

David Best, an investigator with the Government Accountability Office, said that three times during testing the trailer tipped over or ran up on the vehicle. There could have been serious injuries had someone been in the back of the vehicle, where a third Marine sits.

In September, as the Marines were poised to give final approval to the full order of 66 mortar systems and 600 Growler assault vehicles, Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, asked the Marines to postpone the decision so the Government Accountability Office could investigate.

Levin wrote the letter after complaints from Bazinski and after a Detroit television station reported that a Growler traveling at 22 mph, without a trailer, had rolled over at Camp Lejeune when it swerved to avoid a turtle.

Crisp, the Growler executive, wouldn't discuss the turtle report, saying the accident report was classified: "That may or may not have been true."

[k8icu]

Take a 151 suspension and make it smaller and things is going to go flip flop.....

Sounds like some back room deals were made on this one.

[Litz]

Here is a link to the news story video.

There are two parts to the story and two videos.

Use the player at the top right hand corner of your screen to watch the video and then use the link to part two and watch the second video report.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/local/story.as ... 6bc08e8a4b

[Floyd]

Litz, the video is even better, thanks.

Floyd

[M151-LC]

I sent some detailed Tech designs to American Growler to compensate for the Growlers Trailer Problems and possible vehicle Roll Over issues. I sent a detailed explanation of my weld lift support, The weld lift support allows the uni-body to hold a center of gravity with all weight and uni-body vibration being shifted to center. Light weight and easy to install. I also shred a new torsion bar design that works on IRS trailing arms.

The IRS trailing arms on the new Growler can not compensate effectivly due to the shorter uni-body design and lack of overall body weight. The Growler is like Half a M151 in length, the wheel base and lack of body weight works against the center of gravity. The same can be said for the Mortar trailer, the trailer is so small, short and lightweight in design, of course it's going to bounce out of control at higher rates of speed and on rough terrain more so with a Motar and ammo load.

I suggest trying a Trailing arm with a simple torsion bar on the trailer and some simple weights to compensate for the lack of trailer weight and length, the 416 trailer was longer and even with a solid axel worked fine in tow.

I offered pictures of my XM416A Trailer I redesigned and built with the A2 trailing arms as a example.

I also suggested a simple solution to the Ammo storage issue "webbing" just like we use on the M151A2 ROPS. Light weight Cheap and very durable. I don't know who these guys got working for them but they seem to have their head up their ass and wasting a lot of Corporate funds.

[Floyd]

HK: Well said and one would hope they would at the very least answer your letter, in that you have tried to save their backsides. At this juncture in time you should be more than familiar with Corporate America and how they operate, or fail to operate.

Floyd

[M151-LC]

I swear they hire these high priced over paid college grad who sit in front of a computer game to get their ideas and then try to design and build their contraptions. Field testing and modifications should not be very expensive, I have read articles where field testing can cost $100 grand per trail and all that crap.

I have built a M151-LC and it has not cost me more then $1,500.00 in labor and parts from day one, and my feild testing will be ten times more aggresive then what I have read the Gowler UV has indored by USMC standards thus far.

Hell they could hire a bunch of drunk 4x4 fanatics for beer and cigarettes for a week end and have all the solutions worked out after they tear that rig up...LOL

I keep trying to tell them they need basic old school Techs and people who live and die for off roading to come in and work with them to discover the problems and solutions. Make it a fun free for all weekend in a out door enviroment, with a cook out and beer and the Growler could be the most incredible 4x4 vehicle ever built by the hands of man...LOL

NOPE they Rather pay the $100 Grand to people who most likely could care less about off roading on a weekend with their families!

The Growler concept design is a great idea and the design is not all that badly flawed, the suggestions I made are very cost effective, in fact they are dirt cheap. I can see this vehicle with a Bio Diesel diesel hybrid engine too.

Uncle Sam could buy and collect more french fry oil and stock pile it for centuries, but nope that is too easy.

American Growler is spending way to much money on a vehicle that should not cost all that much to build, hving more success with the Stock M151A2 growler kit car design, don't screw up something that is time tested, improve on it!

American Growler have decided to stop replying to me for some stupid reason and everything I have offered has been free information no less. I am sure they are still secretly looking into my suggestions though...LOL

Funny Ford has been the only Company that has been honset and upfront on many of the Concept tech designs I have sent them.

They do honestly like the information I have sent them and were up front and honset that their Corporation is in the deep red and that they are not taking on too many new vehicle designs to try and keep with their budget.

That is a true American buisness they tell you the truth.

In my last e-mail I put my Ford Designers contact information in with the e-mail and told American Growler what Ford Automotive thinks about my concept tech designs.

I am not saying i am better then everyone that works for American Growler, I am just pointing out a few things that could help.

I Like the Growler Platform and I believe with some slight modifications the new Military model could be quite the FAV.

[k8icu]

Sorry to say this but in their eyes you are nobody but an old marine....and they probably wont even acknowlage that..... You ideas how ever good will not be put into testing because you don't have the paper behind your name to back it up. i.e. an engineering degree from some university. And if by some chance one of their engineers does see your ideas and like them they will steal it and not give you credit for it claiming they thought it up all on their own.

[M151-LC]

I do have a few degrees but hell I earned them in back in the day, and they would just lift their nose at it like me a old Marine who should just shut up and go away. It's OK though I will build the XM151A4 and I will present that rig for feild testing I still have a few contacts in the ranks who would show me the Honor of that. In this day and age Old school is out and it's sad because I have so much to offer and didn't want a thing out of my suggestions and graphic designs were a gift for simple freindship.

I want to see the Growler succeed as it is just a modern attempt at upgrading the M151 series Jeep.

American Growlers loss not mine...LOL

[k8icu]

I like your ideas for the xm151A4 I think they have merrit. The Growler IMHO is too small a platform for it's own good. The short wheel base is its down fall.

[M151-LC]

The short wheel base and the ultra light weight of the vehicle makes the design dangerous while turning and also on steep sidewards grades, I had suggested a simple fix of strategicaly placed weights and also a Torsion/sway bar that keep the IRS from rear suspension bounce. This would also keep the IFS from over steer against the IRS on the short wheel base.

It's a simple cheap fix that would make the vehile safer to frive at higher rates of speed off road, the same suggestion was made for the Mortar trailer. I have yet to get any reply and most likely won't from American Growler, but as you stated they won't reply as they would not want to give me any credit, for a simple solution to their vehicle, I am willing to bet someone is looking into my suggestions and found them to be quite realistic...LOL

I have openly stated I don't want anything in return for Tech Data, but I don't think these big Govt. Contrat people can accept that fact...LOL Oh well we will see if any new mods and adaptations are made to the Growler in the next year and if you see something I had made recomendations on as new features we all know the truth of where they were inspired...LOL

You know if this company was just nice to us M151 and other Jeep owners who offer simple Tech mod suggestionsthey may just sell alot more of them ito our Military Jeep and 4x4 offroad Culture over the long haul.

DEMIL to these Groups means nothing it just means they can make what ever modifications they want easier and cheaper.

Heck the Growler is the Ultimate week end play toy and also make awsome hunting rigs too.

I could see the Uni-body design being sold all over the country as the new fad in Rock Crawling 4x4 rigs something our M151-LC in action may just promote, a lot of people are facinated by what I have built and I have notived more people interested in picking up a Old M151 as well as the Growlers for their future Off roading Projects.