Gamma Goat
Moderators: rickf, raymond, Mr. Recovery
Re: Gamma Goat
Oral inflation, I want to see your old arse blow one of them up! Like it would hold air but my guess is you would die before you ever hit the water!
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone
Re: Gamma Goat
Here is the reinforcing plate 12Bravo is describing, along with the rest of the kit, (Photo credit to TJN Murray) and I had already seen this photo before I started down this path. As oriented in this photo, the lower edge of the reinforcing plate goes toward the outer edge of the fender and the top edge bolts in at the side of the body tub/fender joint. Right edge of the reinforcing plate in this photo is 'forward'.
And, yes, closer examination does reveal that my Goat had that reinforcing plate. I missed that. In my defense, I'm moving pretty fast on this project (because I'm dodging periods of rain) so, I may be missing a few pieces of evidence but, my conclusions remain the same. Reinforcing plate = Bad Idea.
Here's how I'm weighing the benefit of having the large plate on the top of the fender, rather than on the bottom.
Original design - pros (+) and cons (-)
+ Tying into the sidewall prevents the piece from rolling forward and back.
+ Reinforcing panel extending out toward the edge of the fender prevents the piece from rocking from side to side.
- Reinforcing panel fails to tie into the outboard beam of the fender; the strongest, most unyielding structure available.
- Having the piece constructed of dissimilar metal and below the fender will create problems related to corrosion.
- Coupled with the the Base, the original, reinforced assembly is heavier than my current design.
My design - pros and cons
+ Resting upon the beam that forms the edge of the fender prevents the piece from rolling forward and back.
+ Extending across the full width of the fender prevents the piece from rocking from side to side.
+ Having the piece on top of the fender and in full view promotes occasional PMs to ensure corrosion doesn't begin.
+ New design no longer requires the additional metal that forms the Base plate and is lighter than the original. My pipe will attach directly to the plate itself. In short, the Base IS ALSO the reinforcing panel.
We know the issue of weight and weight distribution (affecting center of buoyancy) was very much on the minds of Ling-Temco-Vought and the manufacturer, Consolidated Diesel Electric, and I'm trying to remain true to that as a guiding concept.
We also know what having two kits installed (i.e. both a winch and a gun mounted) was the point at which the manufacturer and the the military said - This Vehicle Is No Longer Swimmable. You could have one and swim, or the other and swim, it but not both. The really big issue is that the weapon system is not centered, like the winch is. So that weight IS really very important because of it's location.
Having a non swimming Gama Goat was actually just fine with the Marine Corps. The USMC began their Gama Goat saga by pronouncing that they would rather have had a truck that didn't swim. In fact, they said they preferred a flatbed Gama Goat which never actually came to fruition.
Since my Goat will never, ever be asked to swim, the issue of weight savings (as small as it is in my design) is really just an exercise in staying true to the original thought processes of the designers and manufacturers. Nothing more.
That brings us to the matter of preventing corrosion. I will say that fighting corrosion is a very real and very important part of maintaining our former military vehicles, especially a vehicle such as the Goat. So, my departure from what is "original" is also motivated by the need for continual conservation. In my world the old saying "Out of sight, out of mind" is a very real thing and I would feel horrible if I committed some neglect or oversight that fouled up my Goat.
Cheers,
TJ
And, yes, closer examination does reveal that my Goat had that reinforcing plate. I missed that. In my defense, I'm moving pretty fast on this project (because I'm dodging periods of rain) so, I may be missing a few pieces of evidence but, my conclusions remain the same. Reinforcing plate = Bad Idea.
Here's how I'm weighing the benefit of having the large plate on the top of the fender, rather than on the bottom.
Original design - pros (+) and cons (-)
+ Tying into the sidewall prevents the piece from rolling forward and back.
+ Reinforcing panel extending out toward the edge of the fender prevents the piece from rocking from side to side.
- Reinforcing panel fails to tie into the outboard beam of the fender; the strongest, most unyielding structure available.
- Having the piece constructed of dissimilar metal and below the fender will create problems related to corrosion.
- Coupled with the the Base, the original, reinforced assembly is heavier than my current design.
My design - pros and cons
+ Resting upon the beam that forms the edge of the fender prevents the piece from rolling forward and back.
+ Extending across the full width of the fender prevents the piece from rocking from side to side.
+ Having the piece on top of the fender and in full view promotes occasional PMs to ensure corrosion doesn't begin.
+ New design no longer requires the additional metal that forms the Base plate and is lighter than the original. My pipe will attach directly to the plate itself. In short, the Base IS ALSO the reinforcing panel.
We know the issue of weight and weight distribution (affecting center of buoyancy) was very much on the minds of Ling-Temco-Vought and the manufacturer, Consolidated Diesel Electric, and I'm trying to remain true to that as a guiding concept.
We also know what having two kits installed (i.e. both a winch and a gun mounted) was the point at which the manufacturer and the the military said - This Vehicle Is No Longer Swimmable. You could have one and swim, or the other and swim, it but not both. The really big issue is that the weapon system is not centered, like the winch is. So that weight IS really very important because of it's location.
Having a non swimming Gama Goat was actually just fine with the Marine Corps. The USMC began their Gama Goat saga by pronouncing that they would rather have had a truck that didn't swim. In fact, they said they preferred a flatbed Gama Goat which never actually came to fruition.
Since my Goat will never, ever be asked to swim, the issue of weight savings (as small as it is in my design) is really just an exercise in staying true to the original thought processes of the designers and manufacturers. Nothing more.
That brings us to the matter of preventing corrosion. I will say that fighting corrosion is a very real and very important part of maintaining our former military vehicles, especially a vehicle such as the Goat. So, my departure from what is "original" is also motivated by the need for continual conservation. In my world the old saying "Out of sight, out of mind" is a very real thing and I would feel horrible if I committed some neglect or oversight that fouled up my Goat.
Cheers,
TJ
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Last edited by m3a1 on September 12th, 2020, 12:30 pm, edited 13 times in total.
Re: Gamma Goat
I knew she would be in good hands.
Re: Gamma Goat
I always loved/hated the M561 (depended on whether I was driving it or working on it...). I am always looking forward to your updates and progress, as the pieces are just so darn readable!
Jim Peterson
SGM, 31B Retired 2015
1961 M151 -Sold
1974 M151A2, Working It!
SGM, 31B Retired 2015
1961 M151 -Sold
1974 M151A2, Working It!
Re: Gamma Goat
Thank you, M75. I enjoy writing them. There's nothing quite as nice as waking up and having a little G838 with our coffee, eh?
Cheers,
TJ
Cheers,
TJ
Re: Gamma Goat
I screwed up...and everything was going so nicely!.... Or maybe I didn't screw up and I just didn't fully realize how this was going to turn out. My theory was that the Arm would remain outboard of the Splash Guard when stowed. It sure seemed like it and in all my test fitting it did. I checked everything three times! I marked the pipe and checked again. Heck, I pinned the pipe to the Arm, oriented it correctly and then put registry marks on the base plate and the pipe and checked one more time but, when I put everything together...well, let's just say the Arm ended up being far more inboard than it did on the test fitting and YES...my holes are still at 10 and 4 o'clock positions doggone it! I'm still wondering how anything changed. 
Ah well, after all, it WAS made on a Friday!
Well, THIS was unexpected!
So, unhappy with my result, I did what any red blooded American would do. No, I did not throw the whole thing on the scrap heap and build a new one! I dropped back and punted! I added a second hole to the pipe and voilà... all is right with the world and do you know what? I think having the second hole has a great deal of merit. It's not an original mount so I'm not losing any sleep over it. I'll explain the benefit of the second hole, later.
And here we have an opportunity to see the relationship between the securement pin on the flexible gun mount and how it is meant to attach to the wing (or tab) on the Arm. In order for the pin to go into place, the Gun Mount must be facing to the rear when the Arm is in the stowed position. (Note that my Gun Mount's pin is being used for some other gizmo at the moment.) No, not that big silver pin! The little one below it. In short, with the Gun Mount pinned to the Arm, wherever the Arm is pointing, that is almost where the gun is going to be pointing. So, if the day comes when you see a Gama Goat tooling around with the Arm in the stowed position, but with the weapon facing forward, you can say with great authority, "Ah HAH! He doesn't have his Gun Mount secured!" (and you thought reading all of this was just a waste of time... )
And that second set of holes I drilled? They give me the option of stowing the Arm outside of the the Splash Guard and fully outside the confines of the crew compartment.
I know, I know...it doesn't seem to make sense until you remember, with the Arm deployed, all of what was facing rearwards is now kinda sorta facing forward and, in the photo below we see that the relationship between the pin and the wing is now very much improved.
And here we have the arm in the stowed position, using the 10-4 o'clock holes. Now, it is very much inboard of the splash guard and very much in a position where the gunner can lay the gun pretty much straight ahead. Surprise, SURPRISE! Could it be this is what they intended after all? Maybe I didn't get it wrong after all! One thing is for certain. The Splash Guard is just one more thing in the way.
Basically the second set of holes allows me to have my cake and eat it too. The benefit is, with the Splash Guard in place, I simply use the second set of holes to stow the Arm which is a very nice option to have.
Ah well, after all, it WAS made on a Friday!Well, THIS was unexpected!
So, unhappy with my result, I did what any red blooded American would do. No, I did not throw the whole thing on the scrap heap and build a new one! I dropped back and punted! I added a second hole to the pipe and voilà... all is right with the world and do you know what? I think having the second hole has a great deal of merit. It's not an original mount so I'm not losing any sleep over it. I'll explain the benefit of the second hole, later.
And here we have an opportunity to see the relationship between the securement pin on the flexible gun mount and how it is meant to attach to the wing (or tab) on the Arm. In order for the pin to go into place, the Gun Mount must be facing to the rear when the Arm is in the stowed position. (Note that my Gun Mount's pin is being used for some other gizmo at the moment.) No, not that big silver pin! The little one below it. In short, with the Gun Mount pinned to the Arm, wherever the Arm is pointing, that is almost where the gun is going to be pointing. So, if the day comes when you see a Gama Goat tooling around with the Arm in the stowed position, but with the weapon facing forward, you can say with great authority, "Ah HAH! He doesn't have his Gun Mount secured!" (and you thought reading all of this was just a waste of time...
)And that second set of holes I drilled? They give me the option of stowing the Arm outside of the the Splash Guard and fully outside the confines of the crew compartment.
I know, I know...it doesn't seem to make sense until you remember, with the Arm deployed, all of what was facing rearwards is now kinda sorta facing forward and, in the photo below we see that the relationship between the pin and the wing is now very much improved.
And here we have the arm in the stowed position, using the 10-4 o'clock holes. Now, it is very much inboard of the splash guard and very much in a position where the gunner can lay the gun pretty much straight ahead. Surprise, SURPRISE! Could it be this is what they intended after all? Maybe I didn't get it wrong after all! One thing is for certain. The Splash Guard is just one more thing in the way.
Basically the second set of holes allows me to have my cake and eat it too. The benefit is, with the Splash Guard in place, I simply use the second set of holes to stow the Arm which is a very nice option to have.
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Last edited by m3a1 on September 14th, 2020, 3:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Gamma Goat
And now, it's time for the trophy shots!
A Pig on a Goat! Well-well-well. You don't see that everyday!
Something to think about that, despite how really neat this all looks, is the fact that having this gun mounted is really very much in the way of the gunner's ability to enter and exit the crew compartment efficiently.
Note that the mount determines the angle of the ammo can. This does more than help it feed the gun. It actually ensures the ammo can clears the cowling quite nicely.
Here's a good pic of the ammo can clearing the cowling. Happy coincidence? Or by design? The whole thing looks strange and yet, it's fairly well though out.
Here's the kick in the crotch. You may remember that earlier, I said the my Arm was set up for a short pintle (which is what my M142 mount is equipped with). As it turned out, my Arm is actually a LONG socket. Whoops! But, I have had the M142 mount for far longer than the Arm and, yes, it still goes in and fits very, very nicely with all the bearing surfaces in the right places so IMHO, this is nothing to lose any sleep over. I could drill a new hole and tap it for a retaining screw. I probably won't as it is totally unnecessary for display purposes (for that, I am willing to cheat a little bit) and I am unwilling to modify original parts, which would reduce their value to just about zero. For display purposes, it will be just fine.
Cheers,
TJ
"This is my Gama Goat. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
A Pig on a Goat! Well-well-well. You don't see that everyday!
Something to think about that, despite how really neat this all looks, is the fact that having this gun mounted is really very much in the way of the gunner's ability to enter and exit the crew compartment efficiently.
Note that the mount determines the angle of the ammo can. This does more than help it feed the gun. It actually ensures the ammo can clears the cowling quite nicely.
Here's a good pic of the ammo can clearing the cowling. Happy coincidence? Or by design? The whole thing looks strange and yet, it's fairly well though out.
Here's the kick in the crotch. You may remember that earlier, I said the my Arm was set up for a short pintle (which is what my M142 mount is equipped with). As it turned out, my Arm is actually a LONG socket. Whoops! But, I have had the M142 mount for far longer than the Arm and, yes, it still goes in and fits very, very nicely with all the bearing surfaces in the right places so IMHO, this is nothing to lose any sleep over. I could drill a new hole and tap it for a retaining screw. I probably won't as it is totally unnecessary for display purposes (for that, I am willing to cheat a little bit) and I am unwilling to modify original parts, which would reduce their value to just about zero. For display purposes, it will be just fine.
Cheers,
TJ
"This is my Gama Goat. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
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Last edited by m3a1 on September 14th, 2020, 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Gamma Goat
I took my welds down with a grinder. They were ugly and I'm kinda out of practice. Welds are solid but just not what I was looking for as a finished product.
A coating of JB Weld always pretties things up. Didn't even sand it down. This went straight into primer, then paint.
Once I have everything installed, I'll see if I can't manage some overhead photos. Those would surely help y'all make some better sense of this. So, stay tuned. Those pics are coming soon.
Cheers,
TJ
"This is my Gama Goat. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
A coating of JB Weld always pretties things up. Didn't even sand it down. This went straight into primer, then paint.
Once I have everything installed, I'll see if I can't manage some overhead photos. Those would surely help y'all make some better sense of this. So, stay tuned. Those pics are coming soon.
Cheers,
TJ
"This is my Gama Goat. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
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-
Bill, Idaho
- Master Sergeant
- Posts: 324
- Joined: December 14th, 2007, 5:54 pm
- Location: Caldwell, Idaho
Re: Gamma Goat
As a fellow Goat owner, and having been through many of the trials and tribulations you are going through, I am impressed!
Do you happen to have the 4-can ammo rack for the passenger side rear (middle?) fender? If you are going to have the MG, you should probably have the ammo can rack as well.
And, no I don't have a spare one and don't know where to find one at this time. I would be glad to snap some pics if you want to make your own.
I do happen to have-------a Gamma Goat specific radio mount plate. The military did things kind of weird every great once in a while. Under the radio would be a radio mount. That makes sense. Then, in many applications, they would design and install a radio mount plate.(?) It was a plate the radio mount bolted to. Seems a but redundant to me, but what do I know...... Mutts have them, I think they are referred to as "sponson mounts".
Anyway, I have one that needs to be welded up. I actually found it at an MV show (in Lodi years ago as I recall) It is one that left whatever factory they were made at, but it was never welded! If a guy had a wire-feed welder that can do aluminum, or knew of a local shop........
They are extremely rare. (It took me probably ten years to find mine!)
Do you happen to have the 4-can ammo rack for the passenger side rear (middle?) fender? If you are going to have the MG, you should probably have the ammo can rack as well.
And, no I don't have a spare one and don't know where to find one at this time. I would be glad to snap some pics if you want to make your own.
I do happen to have-------a Gamma Goat specific radio mount plate. The military did things kind of weird every great once in a while. Under the radio would be a radio mount. That makes sense. Then, in many applications, they would design and install a radio mount plate.(?) It was a plate the radio mount bolted to. Seems a but redundant to me, but what do I know...... Mutts have them, I think they are referred to as "sponson mounts".
Anyway, I have one that needs to be welded up. I actually found it at an MV show (in Lodi years ago as I recall) It is one that left whatever factory they were made at, but it was never welded! If a guy had a wire-feed welder that can do aluminum, or knew of a local shop........
They are extremely rare. (It took me probably ten years to find mine!)
Re: Gamma Goat
Thanks for the offer, and I hate to decline but after the MUTT, I've decided i've had about enough of radios and antennas. They're kind of a pain not really my thing. I only put them back on the MUTT because it had them at one time. My Goat never had radios. If I got your mount it would probably never again see the light of day.
My Goat never had a radio and I don't want to drill any new holes (it's a boat, after all). Far better if you would promote your kit just a bit. No doubt some other Goat owner would really love to have it.
Yes indeed, I do have the ammo can rack. The Goat came with it already mounted (and with nicely marked cans!) so I think, with the replacement of the gun mount, we're just about done hanging things on this rig, though I am looking for a correct (and operational) fire extinguisher with mount. My Goat has holes for the fire extinguisher mount on top of the cowling, and what I believe to be a second set of extinguisher mount holes on the electrical panel. I doubt they left the extinguisher mounted on top of the cowling once the gun mount was installed.
Of anyone has any proven information about that I'd love to hear it.
Cheers,
TJ
My Goat never had a radio and I don't want to drill any new holes (it's a boat, after all). Far better if you would promote your kit just a bit. No doubt some other Goat owner would really love to have it.
Yes indeed, I do have the ammo can rack. The Goat came with it already mounted (and with nicely marked cans!) so I think, with the replacement of the gun mount, we're just about done hanging things on this rig, though I am looking for a correct (and operational) fire extinguisher with mount. My Goat has holes for the fire extinguisher mount on top of the cowling, and what I believe to be a second set of extinguisher mount holes on the electrical panel. I doubt they left the extinguisher mounted on top of the cowling once the gun mount was installed.
Of anyone has any proven information about that I'd love to hear it.
Cheers,
TJ
Re: Gamma Goat
All the parts are primed and have three coats of paint with plenty of dry time between coats. Just finished coating the side that goes up against the fender with leak seal (a spray on coating that is a bit like undercoat). Letting that dry overnight. If the weather holds, maybe I'll actually get these pieces on the Goat tomorrow! Am I excited? You bet!
Cheers,
TJ
Cheers,
TJ
Re: Gamma Goat
Ummm...
...No.
...No.
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Re: Gamma Goat
Into many things today from grocery shopping to lawn maintenance to.... Goat herding.
It's on and seal coat of paint laid top and bottom.
What did YOU do today?
Cheers,
TJ
"This is my Gama Goat. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
It's on and seal coat of paint laid top and bottom.
What did YOU do today?
Cheers,
TJ
"This is my Gama Goat. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
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Re: Gamma Goat
Hmm. Obviously he wasn't driving a Gama Goat.
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Re: Gamma Goat
Our maintenance section Goat in the line company (C Co, 1;50th Inf (M), 2d AD) did not have the MG mount, but we were familiar with its existence. The common thought was that if we ever needed an M-60 on the maintenance contact truck, we were too close, and should have called up the M-578 VTR instead! At least the VTR had some steel and a .50 cal, plus a radio.
Speaking of that, our Goat did have a fender-mounted radio set, which the assistant driver/mechanic monitored while wearing the headphones that provided a little relief from the Detroit Diesel roaring just behind his head. A standard radio mount was used, for the 524 or 160 amplifier/PRC-77 combination, located on the right fender next to the passenger position. A cable ran from the mount back to the front wall of the trailer where the antenna was mounted. I don't think it was a standard location, a the cable would have to run from tractor to trailer, and that meant constant bending, flexing and other motions that would tend to shorten the life of the cable considerably.
Speaking of that, our Goat did have a fender-mounted radio set, which the assistant driver/mechanic monitored while wearing the headphones that provided a little relief from the Detroit Diesel roaring just behind his head. A standard radio mount was used, for the 524 or 160 amplifier/PRC-77 combination, located on the right fender next to the passenger position. A cable ran from the mount back to the front wall of the trailer where the antenna was mounted. I don't think it was a standard location, a the cable would have to run from tractor to trailer, and that meant constant bending, flexing and other motions that would tend to shorten the life of the cable considerably.
Jim Peterson
SGM, 31B Retired 2015
1961 M151 -Sold
1974 M151A2, Working It!
SGM, 31B Retired 2015
1961 M151 -Sold
1974 M151A2, Working It!