Front brakes, no pedal

[mutt and jeff]

Replaced shoes on front of A1 and with the help from here, got the retainer springs installed. All hardware and adjuster set to lowest screw setting. One front drum went on and took very few turns to feel adjusted correctly, other front drum won't go on. It can probably be tapped on, but then I'm afraid the shoes will grab it and it will not turn. When I went to see if pressing the pedal would release some pressure on the wheel cylinder, by pedal is all the way to the floor. I can pull it up by hand, but it just falls down again. No pressure and not even any feel like the rod to the master cylinder is working. I haven't opened the hood yet, enough for one day, but wondering what might be going on for me to investigate in the morning.

I opened up one bleeder valve to see if releasing some fluid might let the shoes retract some, but I can't get any fluid to drip out the bleeder valve and I have no pedal pressure to squirt some out.

What did I do wrong in replacing the front shoes that would cause this scenario?

I'll hang up and listen...

[Lou]

Most likely one of the pistons on the wheel cylinder shot out when you stepped on the pedal without the drum on. How is the fluid level in the master cylinder? Sounds like you have a brake pedal return spring issue as well. That spring should return the pedal even if the master cannot build up pressure.

Don't mind the dirt, always take pic's before taking something apart. This drum slipped right off. Maybe compare it to your assembled system.

IMG_1902.JPG

IMG_1901.JPG

[Mark]

I am wrong as there is no automatic adjuster, you set the brakes up by hand

[Horst]

And opening the hood will not help much. The master cylinder / pedal cluster is behind the dash. The only thing accessible from under the hood is the cap for the master.

Post a picture of the side giving you problems with the drum off.

[rickf]

You need to get the pedal off the floor before you can do anything else because with it down there can be no fluid return. The spring on the pedal assembly is not hooked up from the sounds of it. As far as one going on and one not if they are both fully adjusted all the way in then you have a drum issue or the wrong adjuster on the tight side. I have heard that bonded shoes use different adjusters from riveted shoe. With that said I changed from riveted to bonded with no problems on mine. I don't remember if I used new drums or not thought so that may be the difference. If you can get hold of a brake shoe installation gauge it will tell you where to set the shoes to match the drums.
https://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-3377- ... 8475&psc=1

But you need to get that pedal issue fixed before doing anything else or even if you get the drums on and brakes working they will drag all the time because the pedal will not return far enough to clear the return port in the master cylinder.

[rickf]

You need to get the pedal off the floor before you can do anything else because with it down there can be no fluid return. The spring on the pedal assembly is not hooked up from the sounds of it. Are the shoes seated against the pin at the top? If not then the pedal issue is holding the wheel cylinder out. As far as one going on and one not if they are both fully adjusted all the way in then you have a drum issue or the wrong adjuster on the tight side. I have heard that bonded shoes use different adjusters from riveted shoe. With that said I changed from riveted to bonded with no problems on mine. I don't remember if I used new drums or not thought so that may be the difference. If you can get hold of a brake shoe installation gauge it will tell you where to set the shoes to match the drums.
https://www.amazon.com/GearWrench-3377- ... 8475&psc=1

But you need to get that pedal issue fixed before doing anything else or even if you get the drums on and brakes working they will drag all the time because the pedal will not return far enough to clear the return port in the master cylinder.

[mutt and jeff]

OK, got the whole day to try and resolve this issue. Cold and rainy, so perfect day for down in the shop and running up here to the house for forum help. So...I mis spoke yesterday when I stated that pedal was all the way to the floor, it is not, it is all the way up, spring is working. But the pedal goes all the way to the floor with no resistance and bottoms out on stop. I have the drivers front drum and wheel on and it spins freely and when I bottom out the pedal, it wants to start to grab, but no pedal left. I am not feeling any resistance in the pedal nor am I hearing anything suck in or out. Not a drop of fluid on the floor and brakes worked but squeeked when this process started.

New shoes, adjusters and light blue lower return springs and these maybe the unapproved military surplus shoes that have been written about, but this MUTT is museum bound, so not driven hard. One thing I noticed today was that the new adjusters are slightly longer than the older ones and this, in combination with the new shoes may explain the lack of adjustment needed to get contact. Pic of the two adjuster shafts side by side. Not much, but some.
And pic of my passenger side front assembled with new shoes and adjusters, but old springs. Feels like I got them installed correctly, but drum will not go on over these shoes.

So, let me have it...what have I done wrong? Or what can I check next to remedy these front brakes.

brakes new.JPG

brake adjuster.JPG

[Horst]

Sorry Jeff but the picture is pretty much useless. Maybe it is me but I don't see the bottom part of the brake set-up and the resolution is also too small.

[Mark]

On the adjuster, shorten it so no threads show, then you should get the drum on.

[mutt and jeff]

I'll go down and take another pic. New adjuster that is on this wheel is adjusted all the way in, no threads left it is bottomed in and it feels like they are seated in the proper slot at the bottom of each shoe.

On my computer, I have to compress them to get them to post to a forum. When I click on the photo in the post, it will enlarge. But if I cut off the bottom of the drum pic, that won't solve it. Down to the shop.

[Horst]

Jeff,

not sure what you define as no resistance when you push the brake pedal. As long as the drum is not on, the passenger side front brake will simply expand up to the point where either the brake pedal will stop on the floor or the cylinder pistons will be ejected from the wheel cylinder with very little resistance in the brake pedal. So to me, that is perfectly normal as this is single circuit brake system. Pushing the brake pedal with one or more drums not installed is not a recommended procedure !

I assume you have used identical components on the left and right hand side? Why did you use new adjusters? Can you try the old, shorter (correct) one? An adjuster too long with brake pads too thick might result in this issue.

[mutt and jeff]

Let's try this pic. Unles something earth shattering that I've done wrong, I'm going to replace the new adjuster with the old. I hve cleaned it up and it works smoothly and that little bit of length difference may be enough to let me get the drum on. I'll keep the new adjuster and once shoes wear down a little I will have them to replace. Just wondering now if something I did while installing these new shoes cause my pedal issue. I'm going to check my fluid level and type of fluid in case I need to bleed or top off. Not aware that a wheel cylinder popped out or a seal came off, so I don't know how air could have gotten in the system based on what I did this week. Pedal now goes all the way to floor and does not fully stop drivers wheel and does not appear to activate anything on the exposed passenger side. My son does not feel any movement, expansion or contraction when I bottom out the pedal.

brake new 2.JPG

[Horst]

Sorry Jeff but the picture is still no help, it only has a resolution of 448 x 299 pixels, we would need something considerably larger to really see something.

As I said, the left wheel will not brake as long as the right drum is missing. However the right cylinder/brake shoes should move at least some.

Anyway, first and foremost you need to remove that incorrect adjuster and replace it with the old one. Install the right side drum. Then you will need to set the adjuster on both sides per the manual.

Only once that is done, you will move to the next step and 1. check fluid level in master and 2. bleed the brakes.

This is a very basic and simple brake system but of course, being single circuit system, if you loose one brake, you will loose them all. So it needs to be done properly with correct components.

[rickf]

You should be able to copy the picture directly from your computer to the forum without any modification. Are you using the "Attachments, Add files" feature in the forum? You should never press the pedal with a drum off, that will 90% of the time blow a wheel cylinder out. If you don't have fluid all over then that did not happen. You need to get the drum on the passenger side before you can diagnose any pedal/pressure issues. The drums have to be on and the shoes have to be adjusted up snug and then backed off 11 clicks. At that point if you do not have any pedal you either need to bleed the system, both front and rear or you need a new master cylinder if bleeding does not work. A lot of the time when you push the pedal all the way to the floor it pushes the piston cup beyond it's normal range into a section of the bore that is never used. That section of the bore is always full of dirt and gunk and when you force the cup through that stuff it usually ruins the cup. Not always but most of the time. But you cannot tell until you get the brake system together so it can build pressure.

[mutt and jeff]

OK, enough for today, I'm getting burned out. Got drum on and no need for adjustment, it is a slight drag for now. Left wheel and tires off for ease in brake bleeding which is next. I have to pull some fluid out of somewhere and test for Dot 3 or silicone as this is an A1 and it could be either one. Then I'll get enough to completely flush the system and fingers crossed I'll get firm pedal back.

I'm feeling all around my master cylinder and it's damp with fluid, but feels old and gritty. I've wiped it all down before I attempt to fill fluid. But I sure don't feel a fill cap on this thing. Is it a plug or square cap?