solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

jpcorsica · Unread post by **jpcorsica** » July 13th, 2014, 4:51 am

Hy everybody

2 month ago, my mutt151A1 didn't start. gasoline was comming to the carburator but no sparks.
Then I decide to change ignition coil and replace the ignition system with a M151/M38 Solid State Ignition Kit (5704857).
Now I have sparks, but still engine doesnt want to start.
Gasoline flow is ok, sparks ok, then i have no idea where is the pb !!!???

Thanks for your advices.
Jean-Pierre

Hambone · Unread post by **Hambone** » July 13th, 2014, 8:30 am

Have you checked to make sure the timing is correct, are you getting fuel to the cyls., are your plugs getting wet???

Unread post by **rickf** » July 13th, 2014, 8:33 am

Gasoline flow is good to the carburetor but is it going through the carburetor? Are the spark plugs getting gas on them or do you see gas at the inlet of the carburetor? If not then maybe the float is stuck. I always try to put my hand over the carb inlet and reach in with the other hand and push the starter button, out of gear of coarse. A couple cranks and your hand should be covered with gas. If not then you are not getting gas into the carb. If you do get gas on your hand then try to start it. It may have just been stuck shut and the extra vacuum pulled it loose. You did not put the plug wires back on in the wrong order did you? That would usually give at least a backfire though.

jpcorsica · Unread post by **jpcorsica** » July 14th, 2014, 5:29 am

I put a finger in the carb inlet and I got some gas on it but not so much.
in the same time the plugs don't really become wet.
should the plugs have to bercome really wet without any doubt ? and the same for the finger in the carb, I got some gas on it but not so much.

Thank for your advice.

Jean-Pierre

Unread post by **rickf** » July 14th, 2014, 6:47 am

Ok, These carburetors will usually drip some gas out the mouth of the carb with the air cleaner hose off after you shut down and while you are cranking so if you are not seeing any gas there I am thinking there may be a problem but lets check a few things first. Are you using full choke to try to start it? This is needed, it will not start by pumping the gas pedal. No accelerator pump until running. Have you tried spraying ether or carb cleaner into the carburetor to see if it would start on that? If it will and still not stay running than you definitely nave a gas flow problem. Try tapping on the body of the carburetor with the soft handle of a screwdriver and see if the float drops loose. If that does not work there is a filter in some of the older carbs under the big nut at the inlet of the carb. What vehicle and what carb is it you are working on?

Rick

jpcorsica · Unread post by **jpcorsica** » July 17th, 2014, 4:47 am

Hy

I've sprayed directly into the carburetor, and YES, it started. Engine was running.
But impossible to start the engine without spaying directly into the carburator before. I am going to clean the carburator.

Jean-Pierre
MUTT 1961 (zenith carburator)

Unread post by **rickf** » July 17th, 2014, 6:43 am

Is your choke set so that it closes all the way? You do have to use the choke most of the time on these.

jpcorsica · Unread post by **jpcorsica** » August 2nd, 2014, 12:38 pm

Hy,
Ok, now it' fine I check the timing and clean the carburator. It started with just a little choke.
But the timing is weird I have to put at least 20° advance for running and it runs better with 30 ° advance.
That's not the standard
I have also difficulties to keep a low RPM at idle.
Beside, I check for the Valves there are ok

If you have any ideas, thanks per advance.

Regards

Unread post by **rickf** » August 2nd, 2014, 2:10 pm

It would not start at 20 degrees advance, it would kick back and backfire through the carb. What are you using to check the timing? Are you using a dial back timing light? Area you sure you are on number one spark plug?

jpcorsica · Unread post by **jpcorsica** » August 3rd, 2014, 2:10 pm

After some more investigation, it appears th oïl pump isn't correctly installed in the motor.
There is a difference approximatively 25 to 30°, which should explain the 20 to 30 ° advance I have to put in the timing to have it running correctly.
Could you confirm my analysis ?

Regards
Jean-Pierre
MUTT 1961

Unread post by **rickf** » August 3rd, 2014, 6:34 pm

The position of the oil pump only changes the position the distributor will set in the motor. It does not change the physical timing of the engine. If you move all of the plug wires around one position on the distributor and then reposition the distributor so that the number one spark plug wire is now lined up with the rotor at TDC in it's new position in the distributor then the timing would be set. The engine does not care what hole the spark comes out of as long as it comes out at the right time. To verify the oil pump position you would bring up number one cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke. The easiest way to do this is to take out the number one plug and put your finger in the hole and have someone tap the starter until you fell the pressure starting to blow your finger out. Then bring it around by hand until the timing mark is lined up. This is actually 6 degrees before TDC but it is close enough for what you are doing. Now take the distributor out and look into the hole. The slot you see in there should be almost parallel to the block and pointed just a bit in towards the front of the engine. If not then the pump was installed wrong. If it is right you may have a distributor that has had the gear put on wrong, I have several of those here at home. They all have tags from the govt. marked "BAD". In other words someone screwed up so they disposed of them. In the -34 manual there is a procedure for installing a new gear on a distributor including the process for making a tool for setting up the distributor and gear for drilling the shaft. That is what I am going to do with all of mine when I retire, redrill them and put the gears on right.

Unread post by **rickf** » August 3rd, 2014, 6:37 pm

Now that I rambled on with all of that above I do need to mention that IF it is actually running with the timing set at 30 to 40 degrees you may have a valve timing issue. The only way to tell that is pull the timing cover and check the marks on the gears. You can do it with timing wheels and micrometers but it is easier to pull the cover.

jpcorsica · Unread post by **jpcorsica** » August 5th, 2014, 1:05 pm

Hy rickf

Thank you for your detail reply.

The position of the oil pump only changes the position the distributor will set in the motor. It does not change the physical timing of the engine. If you move all of the plug wires around one position on the distributor and then reposition the distributor so that the number one spark plug wire is now lined up with the rotor at TDC in it's new position in the distributor then the timing would be set. The engine does not care what hole the spark comes out of as long as it comes out at the right time. To verify the oil pump position you would bring up number one cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke. The easiest way to do this is to take out the number one plug and put your finger in the hole and have someone tap the starter until you fell the pressure starting to blow your finger out. Then bring it around by hand until the timing mark is lined up. This is actually 6 degrees before TDC but it is close enough for what you are doing. Now take the distributor out and look into the hole. The slot you see in there should be almost parallel to the block and pointed just a bit in towards the front of the engine. If not then the pump was installed wrong.

I've done all of that and when the cylinder is at TDC, the timing mark is almost lineup, but the slot is not parallel. as you can see on the pictures below.
the pump was installed wrong !!

[URL=http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer. ... .jpg[/img]
[URL=http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer. ... .jpg[/img]

The distributor seems ok. But as the pump was installed wrong with about 30° diffrence, when I put 30° advance in timing, it's more or less compensated.
Beside, I don't find in the .34 manual

the process for making a tool for setting up the distributor and gear for drilling the shaft

, could you tell me which page ?

regards

Unread post by **rickf** » August 5th, 2014, 8:20 pm

I will have to do some research on that one and I am getting ready to hit the sack tonight.

svramselaar · Unread post by **svramselaar** » August 6th, 2014, 2:55 am

hi

for the tdc cyll 1
take the valve cover off
if the inlet and outlet rocker arms from cyll 4 tumble`s (outlet up and inlet down )
you have it ( cyll 1 at end of compression )
look also at the pully if the marker is at 6 degree of
if you stand for the engine pully mark must be left from markerlip at tdc
it is posseble the marking is not at the right point ??
put the ignition at the engine ( it can only at one position )
the rotorarm is at cyll 1
let the engine run
adjust to turn the ignition so tad the engine has the highest idle revs
take it a litle back and you are there
you can control it with the timing light

for oil pump ignition setting
http://www.pedros.cz/M151/TM_9-2320-218-34_Jan1972.pdf
page 4-116 / 4-117

i think rickf is agree with this methode

george

solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start

Re: solid state ignition - engine doesn't start