Engine will not turn over

[Redlight]

Yesterday I was getting prepped for two Parades this weekend. I went to start my jeep and after turning over twice, I hit the starter and nothing happened. I had good batteries with 24 volts. I thought it was a starter switch so I ohmed it out. Tested as good. I applied 24 volts directly to the starter post and nothing happened. I remover the starter and tried it again with a set of jumper cables. The starter spun great. I noticed that several teeth were damaged on the bendix. I tried to move the engine by hand -no movement. I tried to rock the whole jeep again no movement.
I will be pulling the powerplant over the summer. any guidance would be welcome.
I am looking for at least a starter bendix.- Who has one?
I plan on replacing the clutch as well when I have the power plant out. Question ---what type of clutch to use - Fiber or Puck.
Thanks in advance.
Redlight

[rickf]

Ok, Let me get a little more info here. When you say it does not turn do you mean it does nothing at all, no sound, nothing or the starter spins but does not spin the engine? Can you turn the engine using the fan by hand or is the engine locked up? If locked up pull the spark plugs and try again and see if any fluid comes out of the plug holes and if so what is the fluid.

You definitely want a fiber clutch if you can find one. If you were running a puck clutch before you will need to have the flywheel turned or replaced since the puck clutches tear up flywheels. I put a fiber disc on a puck flywheel without turning it and I have gotten away with it but I can tell it has worn down fast. I only did it because I was leaving the next day for a rally 350 miles away!

[Redlight]

Hi Rick,
The engine does not move at all. It seams bound up mechanically. It can not be turned by hand or stater. I tried to put it into gear and see if pushing would turn the motor at all. no go. When i disengaged the clutch the jeep would roll no problem.
How long should it take a backyard mechanic to pull the engine?
Can I see what type of clutch I have by looking into the top of the bell housing. If I have a Puck type should i replace it in kind or change to a fibre style?
I rebuilt this jeep by myself over several years but the power pack was installed when I got it close to 20 years ago. I have pulled and rebuilt several M38a1 engines in the past so I do not expect a problem other than I am now pushing 73 years old and have limited help.

[Mark]

I wonder if the rings are rusted to cylinder walls?Spray PB blaster, Kroil, in cylinders?

[rickf]

It turned over fine a couple times and then stopped, that sounds like a hydrolock to me. Have you pulled the plugs out yet and tried it? I know I had you phone number a while ago but I have no idea where it is, PM it to me and I will go over a few things with you. Including engine removal which is not hard at all. 2 hours taking a lot of breaks. No oil to drain, no water to drain. Two driveshafts, one clutch cross shaft, the shifter, a few wires and four mount bolts. I also take the grill out since it makes it a lot easier to come straight out the front, that is only 6 or 8 bolts.

I have done it in 20 minutes by myself a few years ago but I figure it would take the best part of an hour now.

[Redlight]

Some updates on my project including some pictures.
My workspace.

IMG_6796.JPG

I first followed the -20 to remove all the connections between the powerplant and the body.
and pulled the powerplant.

IMG_6773.jpg

This is what remained. Note missing motor mounts.

IMG_6790.jpg

I then separated the transmission from the bell housing. The throwout bearing and carrier come apart and fell on the bottom of the bellhousing.
By this time I was very tired, and stopped for the day. However I tried to move the engine via the clutch and wonders but what happened the engine freely moved. It was not locked. I stopped for the day with more question for the next day.
The next day I placed the transmission on the work bench and removed the shift top. My thoughts that something was broken in the tranny. It looked clean with no broken gears, the gears themself rotated with no problem.

IMG_6793.jpg

I was baffled; both the engine and the transmission were free.
What I think happened was the throwout bearing fell from it's holder and became wedged in the bell housing stoping engine and transmission movement. The jeep would roll but the engine would not move by starter, hand on the pulleys or even rocking the jeep in gear.
So my new tasks is to, while the powerplant is out.1) replace the clutch (fiber disk) 2) replace the throwout bearing and 3)reassemble the powerplant.
Any comments are welcome. Any hints on how to replace the clutch and bearing will be helpfull.IE how to adjust the bearing holder as the shaft can thead in and out. A post the other day covered the engine and clutch -anywhere I can download a copy?

[rickf]

It would not be possible for the throwout bearing to fall out. It is mounted on a fork and around the input shaft of the transmission. So there is no way it can come out of there until the transmission is removed from the engine. Even if the throwout bearing itself locked up solid when you were rocking the vehicle back and forth it would have turned the engine because there would have been no pressure on the throwout bearing. I am wondering if somehow the transmission get jammed into two gears at once. That is not all that uncommon. Did you notice if the shifter felt strange at any point? I know you said you never tried starting it with the clutch in. I think the reason the bearing fell out is because it got snagged on the transmission shaft as you pulled the transmission, There are only two small clips holding the bearing on there since once the transmission is in then it rides on the transmission input guide. The clips only hold the nearing to guide it in place. The clutch adjustment will not be done until the whole thing is back in the vehicle and then it is done by screwing that shaft in or out as needed. When you get the clutch be sure to check your pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft and replace it if needed. Lining up the clutch disc is usually done with a clutch pilot tool but I have never found one to fit the mutt so you have to improvise or go out and buy a universal clutch line up set. I will give you a call tomorrow and tell you how I do it, and I even have the line up tool and I don't use it.

[glcaines]

If you don't have a line-up tool and need one, it isn't that difficult to make one. I took Pam from the kitchen and sprayed the transmission shaft after I thoroughly cleaned the shaft. I then made a cast of the shaft with plaster of paris. I then sprayed Pam in the cast and then filled the cast with resin and let it cure. I then broke the cast off with a hammer. I used that resin tool for three different clutch installs before I found a trashed transmission and removed the shaft for future work.

[rickf]

Good idea. I have a totally disassembled transmission in the stock of parts I bought, I never thought to look for an input shaft.

I find a socket that fits snug in the pilot bearing and then I wrap the long socket extension with duct tape where it will go through the clutch disc until it is a snug fit and that is my tool. quick and easy and I can usually make that in less time than it takes to find my universal clutch installation kit.

[Mark]

I aligned the clutch disk by eye-balling it to end of the crankshaft a couple of times a long time ago. It went right in.Maybe beginner's luck had something to do with it.

[Redlight]

Continued work on the project today.
I was able to swap the bendix unit on the my original starter with another from bad starter the grinds when it spines. Problem fixed.
Picked up another transmision and opened it up. The gears would not turn and the forks would not move. Banged on the gears that slide with a rubber hammer and that started to move. Never got them to slide fully so gears still not moving. Tried to get the forks to move by rubber hamer as well as using the shifter. Still no movement. Set aside to let oil lubricate the tranny parts.
I then took the clutch off the flywheel.

clutch plate2.jpg

What did I find but ball bearings. The bearing in the center of the flywheel was in pieces.

pilet bearing.jpg

Also I discovered that I have Puck Disk.

clutch disk 3.jpg

clutch disk 2.jpg

Of course I order a fiber disk. Can I use the fiber disk now?
Does anyone have the part number or name for the bearing in the center of the flywheel.
Thanks
Redlight

[rickf]

Did you also order a new pressure plate? Always a good idea to replace both at the same time. And also a good idea to have the flywheel turned when replacing a clutch. I have gotten away with not doing it, then again I have also been bitten by not having it turned and ended up with slipping or chattering clutches. How does the flywheel look? The pressure plate does not look to bad but "technically" the fiber disc uses a diaphragm type pressure plate. Again, I have gotten away with this setup but if it does not work it is a lot of work to do over. I don't have the part number but you are looking for the pilot bearing.
Whenever replacing a clutch in anything is is usually best to do it as a complete set with the disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing and pilot bushing/bearing. If the flywheel is not heat checked or has hot, burn spots on it which are actually hard spots, then you can got over it with a 180 grit disc on a DA sander and take the gloss of of it so the new clutch will break in on a fresh surface. If it has burn spots you can take it to a machine shop to be turned but they will most likely tell you it needs to be replaced since the hard spots will just break their tool bits.

[svramselaar]

hi
below the numbers
the 8712372 is the normal plate
the 10913204 is a puck plate

Scanned at 23-6-2023 12-02.jpg

[svramselaar]

hi
i also made my clutch hevier to put washers below the springs
to adust see below
to see if the plate is centert i look alwais at the outside if the plate and pressureplate are centert it works alwais

drukgroep afstellen.jpg

[Redlight]

Next update:
On Sunday with torrential rains, a group of friends and I installed the powerpack.

Powerplant before installation.jpg

I removed the spark plugs along with the wires so we could spin the motor over with no resistance. I (really we) installed the starter, easy enough once I found the bolts that were removed at the start of this trip. We wanted to make sure everything moves so we got very long starter cables and applied power to the starter post.

IMG_8180.jpg

The engine tried to turn. Bit of hope that all of the repairs were successful. Tried again and nothing happened, nasty word were spoken by me. Then someone said lets check the batteries. Hooked up two 12 volt chargers and waited 10 minutes. While chargers still hooked up, we tried the jumper cables again. Now several rotations of the engine, then tried it in gear. Everything moves!!! Looks like the repairs worked.
Now onto the install process.

IMG_8181.jpg

I had purchased a leveling bar from Harbour Freight to attach to the engine lift. This allowed for much easer installation.
Before we installed the engine, we installed the lower bellhousing cover. It was easier doing it in midair.
We Installed new motor mounts front and back and proceeded to place the powerpack into position. The mounting bolts slid in to place. Easy-peasy

Powerplant installed.jpg

As it was still pouring rain. ( 2-3 inches from 10:00am until 2:00 pm, along with tornado warnings) I ordered 3 pizza to be delivered.
We placed the jeep on ramps so I can roll underneath to hook up drive shafts later on.

IMG_8182.jpg

We quit about 2:00 pm, cleaned up and retired to the covered porch for Pizza and Beer.
It is great to have friends willing to help.